DrewP said:
the Gainclone is a simple circuit? You mean all those transistors inside that little package don't count? By the same logic, a Pentium 4 is simpler than a Parasound amp.
🙂
Ugly work as usual Peter 🙂
And what about those copper heatsinks... THAT is really exotic !
Why have you removed capacitor's labels ? Now, we can't know that they're BlackGates or Panasonic !
Regards, 😉
edit: uhhhhh new pic already ?
And what about those copper heatsinks... THAT is really exotic !
Why have you removed capacitor's labels ? Now, we can't know that they're BlackGates or Panasonic !
Regards, 😉
edit: uhhhhh new pic already ?
Diversity
Just so you don't feel picked on, I came exactly the opposite direction as my colleague and friend Peter. I used all sorts of exotic circuitry, components, and construction methods right up until the day when I learned how to run proper blind tests. I found that not only could I not hear a difference when none was measured, but none of my golden-eared friends could, either.
Many different points of view are represented and tolerated on this forum; it is by no means homogeneous.
Just so you don't feel picked on, I came exactly the opposite direction as my colleague and friend Peter. I used all sorts of exotic circuitry, components, and construction methods right up until the day when I learned how to run proper blind tests. I found that not only could I not hear a difference when none was measured, but none of my golden-eared friends could, either.
Many different points of view are represented and tolerated on this forum; it is by no means homogeneous.
Re: Diversity
So who ended up better?😉 I guess the satisfaction is still the same, but you might have more peace of mind, SY, as you don't have to worry about components any more😉
SY said:
So who ended up better?😉 I guess the satisfaction is still the same, but you might have more peace of mind, SY, as you don't have to worry about components any more😉
Cool looking copper bar Peter, whos the supplier?
thanks
ron
(only someone whos into DIY can think a copper bar is cool looking)
thanks
ron
(only someone whos into DIY can think a copper bar is cool looking)
No, now I have to worry about topology, reliability, coolness, and getting called deaf by people who disagree with me 😎
Elkaid said:
That's what the forum is good for and that's how I learn. I accept everything, try most reasonable options, choose what fits me and share my findings. Those who are interested, listen. Those who look for different pleasures, don't listen.
The hitsink, or rather big chunk of copper, was influenced by various posts on vibrations and the sound of materials. I even bought a piece of Bronze as suggeste by Kuei, but didn't want to waste it in a first amp. The copper block sits directly on a cone and that should provide quick realise of any vibrations (at least I hope for that). Taking off the labels was suggested by no other than Yoshi Segoshi of Sakura systems, who also motiated me, in our mail exchange, to built Patek monoblocks (GainCard is obviously Rolex😉). While those amps are not Pateks yet, this is first attempt to try something different, which might eventually bring Pateks.
Coming back to the main topic of the thread, yes, everything that is built into an amp, makes a difference. It is not only my imagination, but the feedback from friends and customers, who prefer to simply listen, instead of analysing logic and trying to collect facts. I also think that this is very psychologically dependant, as we create our belief system and maybe even subconsciously influence our lives more than we really realise it.
Local Metal Supermarkets. A bar 1' x 1" x 2" was about CAD30. It indeed is not only cool looking, but feels much better than aluminum. I also have a brass bar and bronze bar. All of them produce different sound when excited and bronze seems to be most refined. It is also 3 times more expensive than copper.😉ron clarke said:
BTW: those were the "ringing" H/Ss.
ron
(I aint cheap, when i take my lady out for a nice dinner i even supersize)
ron
(I aint cheap, when i take my lady out for a nice dinner i even supersize)
Don't feel deaf SY,
My wife is with the Orcetra here, and I think she has good hearing in intense moment in music she could hear if the secon violin makes a misstake and so on. I know my hearing isn't the best so I use her and her friends and some of this guys are pretty serious and spend megabucks +10K on interconnects and so on. Not even thoose that have super ears, could hear a difference when I replaced their interconnects with the ones from the 99 cent only store, neither could I. They could tell differce between recordings, where, when, used equipment and so on, they could even hear differnce between amps, pickups and different brands of music intruments. But could they hear a difference between differnt resistors of desent quality, have to check that out.
I guess some of the parts in an apm could effect the sound, but hearing is pretty abstract and is a matter of taste, so would it be fare to say that some just have more refined taste and need more exotic components?
Magnus
My wife is with the Orcetra here, and I think she has good hearing in intense moment in music she could hear if the secon violin makes a misstake and so on. I know my hearing isn't the best so I use her and her friends and some of this guys are pretty serious and spend megabucks +10K on interconnects and so on. Not even thoose that have super ears, could hear a difference when I replaced their interconnects with the ones from the 99 cent only store, neither could I. They could tell differce between recordings, where, when, used equipment and so on, they could even hear differnce between amps, pickups and different brands of music intruments. But could they hear a difference between differnt resistors of desent quality, have to check that out.
I guess some of the parts in an apm could effect the sound, but hearing is pretty abstract and is a matter of taste, so would it be fare to say that some just have more refined taste and need more exotic components?
Magnus
Magnus,
I share with you a mistrust of the hype behind exotic components, but reluctantly, and consistent with DrewP's observations about the DIY Electronics World people, I have found that some exotica is exceptional, other stuff is just overpriced.
I design and build simple circuits for the DIY community and sell power amps and preamps. I use better than average industrial quality componentry. Once complete, and debugged, I then start inserting exotica, one component at a time. I listen, form a judgement, then take the amp/preamp to a friend for his opinion. I do not tell him my impressions. He tells me his - after a week of listening in a reasonably controlled environment. In this way, slowly but surely, I get a picture of what is affecting the sound and how.
My impressions: Black Gates are very good in signal applications, not so wonderful in power filtering. However they are grossly overpriced, a result, no doubt, of the saturation marketing they use. RelCaps, a polystyrene/polypropylene composite, and particularly the RT and RTX series, are exceptional quality, closely followed by Auricaps (though only when there is considerable DC across the Auricap). Mind you, RelCaps are expensive. The standout of the RelCaps, technically, is their extremely low dielectric absorption, which is a source of time smear distortion when transferring audio signals.
Rikenohms are excellent too, and I have picked marked improvements in smoothness without loss of detail in such critical areas as feedback resistors. I cannot explain this in technical terms, but it certainly points up the sensitivity of the ear to qualities not evident with a CRO or distortion analyser.
Improvements can be had with certain types of wire, and for signal the dielectric is important, and I prefer teflon, using solid core copper around 0.5-0.75mm diameter. A mathematical argument for this is plausible factoring in two things; characteristic impedance and skin effect, though it's a little suspect as skin effect is reputed to be irrelevant under 1MHz.
Two things are certain. There is huge hype in this area, with manufacturers marketing their wares with the usual extreme aggression, and, as Peter Daniel identifies, there are synergies, which often prevail with very ordinary, industrial components. It is hardly surprising to me that in an area of such palpable subjectivity, the marketing is thick and fast. This applies in any subjective area; the fashion industry, cosmetics, music, real estate, autos - all endeavours where the human response is primarily emotive, so that is how it is sold.
This doesn't help, of course, but it paints a psycho-acoustic landscape, which is probably the only relevant environment for the development of hifi and DIY. Hifi is like wine; people talk red, but drink white, and while they talk of topologies, and polarize into different camps over componentry and implementation, they share one common, unconscious drive - DIYers, in common with consumers generally, only buy something if they '...like the sound it makes'. This means that once you've built it, you need to 'voice' it.
Cheers,
Hugh
I share with you a mistrust of the hype behind exotic components, but reluctantly, and consistent with DrewP's observations about the DIY Electronics World people, I have found that some exotica is exceptional, other stuff is just overpriced.
I design and build simple circuits for the DIY community and sell power amps and preamps. I use better than average industrial quality componentry. Once complete, and debugged, I then start inserting exotica, one component at a time. I listen, form a judgement, then take the amp/preamp to a friend for his opinion. I do not tell him my impressions. He tells me his - after a week of listening in a reasonably controlled environment. In this way, slowly but surely, I get a picture of what is affecting the sound and how.
My impressions: Black Gates are very good in signal applications, not so wonderful in power filtering. However they are grossly overpriced, a result, no doubt, of the saturation marketing they use. RelCaps, a polystyrene/polypropylene composite, and particularly the RT and RTX series, are exceptional quality, closely followed by Auricaps (though only when there is considerable DC across the Auricap). Mind you, RelCaps are expensive. The standout of the RelCaps, technically, is their extremely low dielectric absorption, which is a source of time smear distortion when transferring audio signals.
Rikenohms are excellent too, and I have picked marked improvements in smoothness without loss of detail in such critical areas as feedback resistors. I cannot explain this in technical terms, but it certainly points up the sensitivity of the ear to qualities not evident with a CRO or distortion analyser.
Improvements can be had with certain types of wire, and for signal the dielectric is important, and I prefer teflon, using solid core copper around 0.5-0.75mm diameter. A mathematical argument for this is plausible factoring in two things; characteristic impedance and skin effect, though it's a little suspect as skin effect is reputed to be irrelevant under 1MHz.
Two things are certain. There is huge hype in this area, with manufacturers marketing their wares with the usual extreme aggression, and, as Peter Daniel identifies, there are synergies, which often prevail with very ordinary, industrial components. It is hardly surprising to me that in an area of such palpable subjectivity, the marketing is thick and fast. This applies in any subjective area; the fashion industry, cosmetics, music, real estate, autos - all endeavours where the human response is primarily emotive, so that is how it is sold.
This doesn't help, of course, but it paints a psycho-acoustic landscape, which is probably the only relevant environment for the development of hifi and DIY. Hifi is like wine; people talk red, but drink white, and while they talk of topologies, and polarize into different camps over componentry and implementation, they share one common, unconscious drive - DIYers, in common with consumers generally, only buy something if they '...like the sound it makes'. This means that once you've built it, you need to 'voice' it.
Cheers,
Hugh
AKSA said:
Hi Hugh,
As usually very thoughtful observations. Would you mind sharing what in your opinion is better sounding in PS than BG? Although I currently use BG in filtering, somehow I have a feeling that there must be something better than that.
And regarding MIT RTX, I found that those Siemens MKV caps can indeed sound better in some applications, especially in tweeter crossovers.
Same here, i once tried some audionote caps vrs some solen caps in a first order crossover and found the solen to sound better.
ron
ron
Thank you Peter,
I have tried a variety of 100uF caps as on board rail filtering, and while the BG is up there with the best of them, the Elna Silmic is VERY good too, and I hardly noticed any difference. Yet there is very substantial difference in cost.
However, I understand the Silmic are now discontinued? This is a blow..... But next cab off the rank will be the Rubycon ZL series, made by the same company as BG, and reputedly very good. I'm also casting around for non-polar caps, after reading Cyril Brenneman's 'Electronics World' articles on 'capacitor sound'.
In the large electrolytics, I generally use 4,700uF 63VW, and have found the KG and Muse series of Nichicon to be excellent, and affordable.
Cheers,
Hugh
I have tried a variety of 100uF caps as on board rail filtering, and while the BG is up there with the best of them, the Elna Silmic is VERY good too, and I hardly noticed any difference. Yet there is very substantial difference in cost.
However, I understand the Silmic are now discontinued? This is a blow..... But next cab off the rank will be the Rubycon ZL series, made by the same company as BG, and reputedly very good. I'm also casting around for non-polar caps, after reading Cyril Brenneman's 'Electronics World' articles on 'capacitor sound'.
In the large electrolytics, I generally use 4,700uF 63VW, and have found the KG and Muse series of Nichicon to be excellent, and affordable.
Cheers,
Hugh
Actually Siemens MKVs are very highly regarded in some circles (just to mention our long time gone friend, Dice45, who raved about them, claiming that those are best caps, period). I had a chance to buy some (not even the best grade I suppose) and try them against all the usual exotic suspects and those Siemens were most naturally sounding caps, not exotic at all, if you know what I mean. That's when my belief in exotic parts started to melt.😉
Thanks for the support Hugh. Although I've done a little tweaking myself and replaced a number of parts here and there in various ccts to good effect, I don't have enough miles up yet to be able to generalise about what particular this or that works best in any given application.
The best thing about forums such as this is the oppourtunity to both share your personal discoveries with others and also benefit from their research and experience.
As far as "not being able to hear it", that's tougher.
I truly believe that much listening in audio is a learned skill.
When I was about 16 and on student exchange in Germany, I had the oppourtunity to accompany the son of the family where I was staying on a shopping trip to audition turntables. his father was gettting a new one as a christmas present. IIRC, the budget was around 2000DM so around 1200US in 1988 prices.
The hifi stores visited were specialists. the only brands/products i can remember specifically were the original Michell tenderfeet (either that or tonecones) and Naim electronics. Suffice to say, these were not crowded noisy chain stores.
We were the only people in the store and got a chance to audition around 4 different TT/ARM/Cart setups. While the dealer and my host family's son discussed the various merits, I had to uncomfortably accept that I could percieve no difference at all.
No difference after changing TT, Arm and Cart on a revealing system? You gotta be kidding!
Nowdays, I can hear the differences between cables and coupling caps and advise friends who are tube rolling about my preferences in their systems. In other words, since 1988 and today, I have learned how to listen.
No doubt, if my hearing was the same as it used to be, I could loudly proclaim that all tweaking and high priced componentry was a load of tripe and be much better off financially. Sadly, this is not the case.
The problem arises when someone with hearing as mine was back in 88 decides and states loudly that just because they cannot hear it, it is not so ofr everyone else.
I've been there and seen the other side of it.
You mightn't hear it, but that doesn't make it non-existent for others.
Drew
The best thing about forums such as this is the oppourtunity to both share your personal discoveries with others and also benefit from their research and experience.
As far as "not being able to hear it", that's tougher.
I truly believe that much listening in audio is a learned skill.
When I was about 16 and on student exchange in Germany, I had the oppourtunity to accompany the son of the family where I was staying on a shopping trip to audition turntables. his father was gettting a new one as a christmas present. IIRC, the budget was around 2000DM so around 1200US in 1988 prices.
The hifi stores visited were specialists. the only brands/products i can remember specifically were the original Michell tenderfeet (either that or tonecones) and Naim electronics. Suffice to say, these were not crowded noisy chain stores.
We were the only people in the store and got a chance to audition around 4 different TT/ARM/Cart setups. While the dealer and my host family's son discussed the various merits, I had to uncomfortably accept that I could percieve no difference at all.
No difference after changing TT, Arm and Cart on a revealing system? You gotta be kidding!
Nowdays, I can hear the differences between cables and coupling caps and advise friends who are tube rolling about my preferences in their systems. In other words, since 1988 and today, I have learned how to listen.
No doubt, if my hearing was the same as it used to be, I could loudly proclaim that all tweaking and high priced componentry was a load of tripe and be much better off financially. Sadly, this is not the case.
The problem arises when someone with hearing as mine was back in 88 decides and states loudly that just because they cannot hear it, it is not so ofr everyone else.
I've been there and seen the other side of it.
You mightn't hear it, but that doesn't make it non-existent for others.
Drew
Drew I have experienced the exact opposite as you have
after working in a noisy environment for 20+ years I have to rely more on my test equipment and other opinions.....having worked for some large corporations we were required to take annual hearing tests and my results were poor compared to younger indivuals.
I do believe in the low level signal chain that quality parts do count and circuit layout is of equal importance and I sort of relish the people who can identify different components that are acoustically more vibrant.
Cheers!!The DIRT®
after working in a noisy environment for 20+ years I have to rely more on my test equipment and other opinions.....having worked for some large corporations we were required to take annual hearing tests and my results were poor compared to younger indivuals.
I do believe in the low level signal chain that quality parts do count and circuit layout is of equal importance and I sort of relish the people who can identify different components that are acoustically more vibrant.
Cheers!!The DIRT®
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