Also I'd just like to add, I really appreciate how many of you have added help and advice on here, I'm thankful for every comment 👍
I still think you should have him try the speaker with a good quality separate amp just to rule in or out it being the problem even if he doesn't want the speaker delivered that way in the future. Then you can decide what to do moving forward.
If it's the amp he doesn't like and you can't find an alternative, then you may just have to accept that he can't be satisfied and the deal is probably off.
On the other hand, if it is not the amp then you can concentrate on various driver, cabinet, and crossover options to suit his taste.
But if it is the amp and you keep trying these other things it could end up being a complete waste of your time.
If it's the amp he doesn't like and you can't find an alternative, then you may just have to accept that he can't be satisfied and the deal is probably off.
On the other hand, if it is not the amp then you can concentrate on various driver, cabinet, and crossover options to suit his taste.
But if it is the amp and you keep trying these other things it could end up being a complete waste of your time.
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Since the better D-chip amps are on the market, cheap amp doesn't mean bad amp. Anyway, the second I hear cheap, bluetooth and Amazon in one sentence, I get an uncomfortable feeling in the gut. At least one word will be responsible for "not too good sound.
You have a 16V power supply, giving the amp only a fraction of it's dynamics. You say your speakers are expensive. So you will not mind to invest a little. Get yourself a 50$ Ayima A07 amp, a 36-48 Volt/7-10A powersupply. I have found this to be some kind of price/ sound optimum, but only if the power supply is strong enough. You can not buy a 2 x 200Watt amp and feed it with an 80 Watt supply. Low voltage makes boring sound, low ampere ruin bass. There is no advantage in doing things wrong...
Then use a signal source of CD quality or better and let your friend/ customer have another try. If he still dislikes your boring speaker, he may be right.
I once installed a high end audio system in a friends car. We had a long listening test with CD's and he was absolutely impressed and 100% happy. A few days later he told me it didn't sound so good as he first thought and we "must improve it".
He came in for a demonstration. First, he had boosted bass and tremble to a childish "boom, boom, zing, zing" level, in an attempt to cure the boring sound. In the end the problem were the MP3 files he downloaded, with 50 hours or so, of music on a single CD.
Funny thing, when he picked up the car after the installation of the system, we casually talked about the degradation of sound quality by compression and he insisted "but all people say there is no audible difference from MP3 to CD" and made fun of me to be an "audiophile with special ears".
In the end he came to the conclusion that his 600$ head unit played CD's well but was unable to reproduce the full quality of MP3's. Because "all said" MP3 was the new great thing.
Let me add, he likes BOSE and all kind of wireless Alexa like products making noise.
In general, if you are a great designer and artistic craftsman, it would be too much to expect from you to be a high end speaker developer on top of it. There are too many things to be done wrong, if you only can do basic measurements. Why don't you take a very good kit, designed and tested by real specialists and concentrate on designing beautiful impressive cabinets around them. Could be another way to do unboring speakers.
I can really recommend the German magazines "Klang&Ton" and "Hobby HIFI". In general they are as objective as possible (except for anything MUNDORF) and not the usual paid for reviews. You find many of them in this shop: https://www.lautsprechershop.de/intro_en.htm
If you can not find crossover data or measurements, you can PM me. Maybe I can help. Good luck!
You have a 16V power supply, giving the amp only a fraction of it's dynamics. You say your speakers are expensive. So you will not mind to invest a little. Get yourself a 50$ Ayima A07 amp, a 36-48 Volt/7-10A powersupply. I have found this to be some kind of price/ sound optimum, but only if the power supply is strong enough. You can not buy a 2 x 200Watt amp and feed it with an 80 Watt supply. Low voltage makes boring sound, low ampere ruin bass. There is no advantage in doing things wrong...
Then use a signal source of CD quality or better and let your friend/ customer have another try. If he still dislikes your boring speaker, he may be right.
I once installed a high end audio system in a friends car. We had a long listening test with CD's and he was absolutely impressed and 100% happy. A few days later he told me it didn't sound so good as he first thought and we "must improve it".
He came in for a demonstration. First, he had boosted bass and tremble to a childish "boom, boom, zing, zing" level, in an attempt to cure the boring sound. In the end the problem were the MP3 files he downloaded, with 50 hours or so, of music on a single CD.
Funny thing, when he picked up the car after the installation of the system, we casually talked about the degradation of sound quality by compression and he insisted "but all people say there is no audible difference from MP3 to CD" and made fun of me to be an "audiophile with special ears".
In the end he came to the conclusion that his 600$ head unit played CD's well but was unable to reproduce the full quality of MP3's. Because "all said" MP3 was the new great thing.
Let me add, he likes BOSE and all kind of wireless Alexa like products making noise.
In general, if you are a great designer and artistic craftsman, it would be too much to expect from you to be a high end speaker developer on top of it. There are too many things to be done wrong, if you only can do basic measurements. Why don't you take a very good kit, designed and tested by real specialists and concentrate on designing beautiful impressive cabinets around them. Could be another way to do unboring speakers.
I can really recommend the German magazines "Klang&Ton" and "Hobby HIFI". In general they are as objective as possible (except for anything MUNDORF) and not the usual paid for reviews. You find many of them in this shop: https://www.lautsprechershop.de/intro_en.htm
If you can not find crossover data or measurements, you can PM me. Maybe I can help. Good luck!
Yes that sounds like a plan, thank you. Do you think there is any chance a lesser built cabinet would produce the sound he's after like he suggested?
I agree that the power the amp produces isn't great, it's only a 30 watt amp, 20 watts with a 12v supply. But honestly I'm so limited in amp options, it has to be mono and bluetooth to create the portable speaker I was designing. I can do as classicalfan suggested and run it from a better external amp and see if anything changes, but if the amp is the problem I'm at a loss for a replacement high quality amp. I considered asking a company to build some amp boards for me but I don't even know where to start with that either. When I first designed the speaker a few years ago I didn't even consider there may be a big issue with available electronics. I'd have no problem adding a £200 amp board into my speakers if they existed.
Might be my only option to build two for a standard stereo set up, but as I've said a few times, for me the sound is good, addictive even, a planned ten minutes listening on that speaker turns into 5 hours easily.
No-one here knows what sound he's after.
And no-one here knows anything about the cabinets you built, other than they're 'mdf clad in copper'.
You're asking us to play a guessing game, blindfold.
If you want useful advice, you need to provide a lot more information about your build.
(I know, I said that before. But you've given no more info, and are still asking for advice.)
It also makes it harder not knowing your level of achievement (technically in the interest of discovering unaddressed or unaccounted for issues). When talking about this frankly you won't want to take anything personally if it is asked in good faith. Not only is this a terribly complex process, but humans cannot really put what they hear into words, even for themselves. What sounds bad would often be a mystery to us without extensive investigation. So many things eluded generations of speaker builders before us 😉
You did say MTM. On average one might assume the treble is unsupported at it's low end, making it distinct rather than a seamless blend. Anything that amounts to an excess of treble will hint toward wanting to ask about false detail.
In addition what can you tell us about the specific challenges you faced while voicing and what is the reason you settled on what you did. To someone with experience this may suggest further questions. What did you do to account for your ceiling. What can a photo of the speaker suggest about diffraction, etc...
You did say MTM. On average one might assume the treble is unsupported at it's low end, making it distinct rather than a seamless blend. Anything that amounts to an excess of treble will hint toward wanting to ask about false detail.
In addition what can you tell us about the specific challenges you faced while voicing and what is the reason you settled on what you did. To someone with experience this may suggest further questions. What did you do to account for your ceiling. What can a photo of the speaker suggest about diffraction, etc...
I guess I am using words incorrectly:
synergistic adj. Working together; cooperative
synergetic adj. Working together; cooperative
spelled differently, same meaning
And
synergy n. 1. combined action
I am sorry if I confused people with my use of the terms: Positive Synergy, and Negative Synergy.
Admittedly,
synergy Also Means: 2. The cooperative action of two or more muscles, nerves, stimuli, drugs, etc.
But I am only using definition 1. which is listed above.
It is grammatically correct to use only one definition of a word, but not use any of the other definition(s) of that same word.
That is what I am doing.
synergistic adj. Working together; cooperative
synergetic adj. Working together; cooperative
spelled differently, same meaning
And
synergy n. 1. combined action
I am sorry if I confused people with my use of the terms: Positive Synergy, and Negative Synergy.
Admittedly,
synergy Also Means: 2. The cooperative action of two or more muscles, nerves, stimuli, drugs, etc.
But I am only using definition 1. which is listed above.
It is grammatically correct to use only one definition of a word, but not use any of the other definition(s) of that same word.
That is what I am doing.
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You continue to misrepresent the meaning of Synergistic by providing grossly oversimplified definitions. "Working together; cooperative" are just a part of the definition, but are not sufficient to fully define the term, which has led to your misuse of it.
Here is the full definition of Synergistic:
"relating to the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects:"
The last underlined part is key to using the term properly and there is no evidence in the examples you provided that has happened.
Here is the full definition of Synergistic:
"relating to the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects:"
The last underlined part is key to using the term properly and there is no evidence in the examples you provided that has happened.
I have no idea how to advise you on the cabinet build. Maybe someone else can answer the question for you.
I just think you have to eliminate variables one at a time in order to find the solution you want.
Honestly, I think I'll do some investigation on the speaker when it gets returned as classicalfan suggested, I'll listen to it on a different amp and take a few more measurements. It's going to be hard for me to find the problem though as I really do like how it sounds, so hopefully a different amp may make whatever the problem is more noticeable, or it may just come down to the fact he likes a different sound to me.
I think I'll start fresh though on a different model, most likely a small two way, made completely of copper, no mdf substrate, larger port to handle more power and start a new thread containing all of the steps, photos, measurements, and driver and crossover details. I very well could be doing something wrong at any point of that process, as I'm still learning every day which I've no problem admitting. And if I can get some constructive criticism during that build it can only make me better at it. I've worked as a fabricator for over 27 years now, tig welding any material you can think of, so I enjoy putting that experience into my builds and making unique cabinets, they're not to everyone's taste but it's how I try to create something different from the norm. But as I said in a previous post, I still want to give the listener a good experience, otherwise I've just created a fancy paper weight. So if people are willing to follow along and give their opinions, good or bad, then that's the best way for me to improve.
I just went back and reread your first post and saw that the cabinet being used is MDF clad in copper. I didn't pay too much attention to that at first, but it could very well be why your friend doesn't like the sound.
And now you are talking about building an all copper cabinet, which is entirely the wrong way to go. Please ditch the copper completely. It has no place in a speaker cabinet. Use MDF or even better use just plywood.
And now you are talking about building an all copper cabinet, which is entirely the wrong way to go. Please ditch the copper completely. It has no place in a speaker cabinet. Use MDF or even better use just plywood.
@clasicalfan can you explain why it's the wrong way to go? The MDF is the main framework, the copper sheet cladding is on the external and the two materials make the box feel as though it's made of concrete, which in all of my earlier research I found that concrete is regarded as the best material for enclosures as it's so dense that the panels don't vibrate and create unwanted noise. I also found a lot of info on enclosures made only of aluminium, which again is regarded as one of the best materials, so being that copper has a lot more strength and weight than aluminium I assumed that it would also create a good enclosure. And to my ears when listening to that speaker I hear no problems at all with my choice compared to the same songs played on the wharfdale I have. If anything it seems the copper gives a more controlled sound over the lightly made wharfdale enclosure, if that makes sense.
As for the enclosure made purely of copper, the material will be 2mm thick, welded all round to create a ridged box, with a panel damping material glued on the inside to knock down any resonances, the side walls will also be curved giving even more rigidity. I honestly don't see how an MDF enclosure would be superior to that? As I said though, I'm no expert, and value the opinions of others with more experience, but from all of my previous tests using those types of materials it only seems to improve sound quality rather than diminish it. But I've always worked on the principal that the better, more densely built the box is, the better the end result in sound quality, but again, I'm happy to be corrected on that, if making more give into the side panels might create a more exciting speaker I'm all for that tbh.
As for the enclosure made purely of copper, the material will be 2mm thick, welded all round to create a ridged box, with a panel damping material glued on the inside to knock down any resonances, the side walls will also be curved giving even more rigidity. I honestly don't see how an MDF enclosure would be superior to that? As I said though, I'm no expert, and value the opinions of others with more experience, but from all of my previous tests using those types of materials it only seems to improve sound quality rather than diminish it. But I've always worked on the principal that the better, more densely built the box is, the better the end result in sound quality, but again, I'm happy to be corrected on that, if making more give into the side panels might create a more exciting speaker I'm all for that tbh.
@6thplanet I'm sorry, he never specified which model it was, I'll find out the next time I speak to him, could be a couple of weeks though depending on how busy he is
Surprisingly, the Better Off with Something Else system in our Mazda sounds good, although the bass can be a little heavy at times. Certainly sounds better than the B*** home or Bluetooth systems I've heard.
Maybe an issue with wood (any wood) clad in metal is whether the adhesive used to join the materials is up to the task and there are no voids in the joins to create resonance. Copper clad cabinets would look pretty cool; you can buy 'metal look' paints but they're costly and would have to be done just right to look good.
There was a firm in Canberra (Oz) which made concrete speakers many years ago, sold through the famous Encel Stereo in Melbourne. My vague memory is that they sounded pretty good, but were heavy (of course) and expensive. Styrene beads were used in the mix to keep weight down. Encel also sold 'JR' brand cylindrical speakers made of thick aluminium, but I didn't audition them.
Geoff
Maybe an issue with wood (any wood) clad in metal is whether the adhesive used to join the materials is up to the task and there are no voids in the joins to create resonance. Copper clad cabinets would look pretty cool; you can buy 'metal look' paints but they're costly and would have to be done just right to look good.
There was a firm in Canberra (Oz) which made concrete speakers many years ago, sold through the famous Encel Stereo in Melbourne. My vague memory is that they sounded pretty good, but were heavy (of course) and expensive. Styrene beads were used in the mix to keep weight down. Encel also sold 'JR' brand cylindrical speakers made of thick aluminium, but I didn't audition them.
Geoff
@GeoffMillar yeah personally I think it depends how well an enclosure is made when it's made from unusual materials, the mix of MDF and metal imo makes the most solid sounding box I've ever wrapped my knuckles on. Although I did question why no one else makes them that way, and figured I'm either an idiot, or an inventor 😂 I'm just not sure which it is yet. But I personally love how they sound.
I'd like to make a concrete one tbh, but I think I'd have to save that for the larger speakers I have planned, ones that won't need to be moved that often, or preferably at all.
I'd like to make a concrete one tbh, but I think I'd have to save that for the larger speakers I have planned, ones that won't need to be moved that often, or preferably at all.
For anyone that may be interested, I'll upload a couple pics of one of the first speakers I built. It wasn't meant to sound great, I had no measuring equipment and just added a baffle step circuit to the drivers. I've learned a lot since I built this, but it was a present for my parents for the side of the bed, made of the same, mdf box but covered in brass, working light, bluetooth and with a wireless phone charger. Not a great speaker but it worked and sounded ok, still works well to this day. At the time I knew little about making a good speaker, but I wanted to give my parents something i had truly worked hard on. Any audiophile would probably kick it down the street though 😂
Hi Dameo,
Are you doing an ungated measurement in a room? If so, it's impossible to know if your speaker is flat. Also, your mic may not be flat either. Even if your speaker is "flat" it can still have many problems. Having a rock solid enclosure and wondering why the sound is bad is like having a $10000 tennis racket and wondering why you don't play like serena williams - there are many components to good sound.
You can do gated hybrid nearfield measurement of your speaker to get a better idea of what is going on, but that is also problematic.
The biggest DIY mistake is no baffle step compensation - this will result in a speaker with thin bass.
Even if you do high quality measurements outside or in an anechoic chamber, you need to make measurements at many different angles. I recommend reading this for more:
https://www.harman.com/documents/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt2_0.pdf
You can also practice listening with Harman "how to listen" software and teach yourself to hear issues with your speakers.
Are you doing an ungated measurement in a room? If so, it's impossible to know if your speaker is flat. Also, your mic may not be flat either. Even if your speaker is "flat" it can still have many problems. Having a rock solid enclosure and wondering why the sound is bad is like having a $10000 tennis racket and wondering why you don't play like serena williams - there are many components to good sound.
You can do gated hybrid nearfield measurement of your speaker to get a better idea of what is going on, but that is also problematic.
The biggest DIY mistake is no baffle step compensation - this will result in a speaker with thin bass.
Even if you do high quality measurements outside or in an anechoic chamber, you need to make measurements at many different angles. I recommend reading this for more:
https://www.harman.com/documents/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt2_0.pdf
You can also practice listening with Harman "how to listen" software and teach yourself to hear issues with your speakers.