I have scoured old threads on dynamics to understand what makes a speaker dynamic and its seems there still isn't a general consensus on the topic. A few points do stand out more than others.
So am curious what would give me more dynamics? Multichannel or PA style speakers?
Of course it would be specific to what multichannel and what PA speakers so lets break it down. But I am up for a general discussion and opinions as well...
Multichannel would be Troel's 3WC which has an 8 inch woofer 3 of these at the front with say a smaller Troel designs with a 5 incher for the rears that are voiced similar. A Marantz pre pro with Hypex NC122 amps and dual subwoofer(pretty descent one RSS315HO with a 900 watt Class T/D amp)
VS
Active crossovers with a Visaton DR45N Compression driver in a horn loading probably something average that goes down to 800hz/900hz with Eminence Delta Pro 12A and the same dual Dayton RSS315HO subs. LEts say for arguments sake the Okto DAC8pro with the same Hypex amps.
Now, what which system would give me that guitar popping out with into my face?
So am curious what would give me more dynamics? Multichannel or PA style speakers?
Of course it would be specific to what multichannel and what PA speakers so lets break it down. But I am up for a general discussion and opinions as well...
Multichannel would be Troel's 3WC which has an 8 inch woofer 3 of these at the front with say a smaller Troel designs with a 5 incher for the rears that are voiced similar. A Marantz pre pro with Hypex NC122 amps and dual subwoofer(pretty descent one RSS315HO with a 900 watt Class T/D amp)
VS
Active crossovers with a Visaton DR45N Compression driver in a horn loading probably something average that goes down to 800hz/900hz with Eminence Delta Pro 12A and the same dual Dayton RSS315HO subs. LEts say for arguments sake the Okto DAC8pro with the same Hypex amps.
Now, what which system would give me that guitar popping out with into my face?
System#2 in a heart beat More efficient and more headroom. But I would trade the Dayton RSS315HO for something like Faital Pro 18XL1800 or a BMS18N862.
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Trdat, I can understand others not wanting to put labels on these things, and not wanting to come to conclusions in case the situation turns out to be more complex.
Perhaps, when a speaker gives the same performance at low levels as at higher levels, it gives the impression of not having a limit. Some of us won't hear what this is like in action until we stumble across it by accident. Some will notice an effect when they listen to an amp that has a certain dynamic distortion characteristic and enough distortion to compete with the speaker. Some will notice when using a certain type of speaker. I suspect though that there is a little more to it than that.
Perhaps, when a speaker gives the same performance at low levels as at higher levels, it gives the impression of not having a limit. Some of us won't hear what this is like in action until we stumble across it by accident. Some will notice an effect when they listen to an amp that has a certain dynamic distortion characteristic and enough distortion to compete with the speaker. Some will notice when using a certain type of speaker. I suspect though that there is a little more to it than that.
I can imagine its a very perplexed issue but collating all the info from many "experts" it seems that a PA style speaker will provide reasonably better dynamics than the standard bookshelf.
Due to my love for dynamics deciding between multichannel and dynamic based speaker is really difficult. I think I might go both, the only thing that stopping me is the annoyance of switching speaker cable to amps and switching amps from a Pre pro to a multichannel DAC. I can buy more amps but that's pushing the limits with what I can afford.
I'm not thinking it's down to your kind of crossover, but I do feel it's important for it to be correct, including acoustically.
Let's say this is a move in the right direction.. Some suggest it is related to efficiency. It's been hypothesised that it comes down to how hard a voice coil is pushed. Have you heard a compression tweeter on a suitable waveguide and properly crossed?
Unfortunately I haven't, well at least not properly or high end. But after listening to a shitty JBL PA speaker then going to my high end system that is worth over 10K dual subs crossed over perfectly with time alignment even before DSP convolution something is missing in my system. I am guessing its dynamics.
What are you exactly suggesting with saying have I heard a compression driver? That these types of systems are dynamic and great if done properly or perhaps they are not as good as i'm making them out to be....
What are you exactly suggesting with saying have I heard a compression driver? That these types of systems are dynamic and great if done properly or perhaps they are not as good as i'm making them out to be....
Are you reserving your convolution for the lower end of the spectrum? What kind of tweeter and how are you crossing it?
Ill use the convolution through the full frequency range in Jriver. And will be using Audiolense active crossovers.(which I am not versed with yet but I have a picture in my mind)
The mid range will be the Visaton DR45N compression driver which goes up to
around 12000hz but with Audiolense DSP I am sure it can go up to about 15000khz/16000khz. This way I save on a bullet tweeter but I can always add one in if I have a dedicated multichannel DAC such as the Okto.
I will cross it over around 800hz, I know 12 inches beam after that so hence why Im choosing a compression driver that is essentially more expensive but will play down that low.
The mid range will be the Visaton DR45N compression driver which goes up to
around 12000hz but with Audiolense DSP I am sure it can go up to about 15000khz/16000khz. This way I save on a bullet tweeter but I can always add one in if I have a dedicated multichannel DAC such as the Okto.
I will cross it over around 800hz, I know 12 inches beam after that so hence why Im choosing a compression driver that is essentially more expensive but will play down that low.
This is not what I would describe as dynamics. It could be, if that's what's on the recording but a system with a good account of dynamics will also sound dull and lifeless when that is what's on the recording.
So it seems the PA style active crossover sound system Im suggesting might not end up giving me what I am looking for if its not in the recording...?
You can listen for hours and then suddenly your speaker is behaving in a way that you would not have guessed from before. On the other hand I don't think I would like unnatural dynamics.
It is difficult to have this conversation when we are describing effects with words, and when you want to add effects that need distortion, it is necessary to know what that means.
The professional driver style is good. If you are not comfortable with crossing then maybe the Troels style would be more successful.
It is difficult to have this conversation when we are describing effects with words, and when you want to add effects that need distortion, it is necessary to know what that means.
The professional driver style is good. If you are not comfortable with crossing then maybe the Troels style would be more successful.
Yeh, understand.
This gives me some hope...
There are the inherent risks of digital crossovers with active speakers, of course I am an amateur and do feel somewhat uncomfortable but taking all speaker design trade off's and particulars in consideration then tying it all with DSP I'm hoping it should come out half descent. It will be a learning experience...
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I found, lower compliant woofers meaning higher Vas biamped to a high quality midrange passively crossed to a modern dome tweeter.
I may be wrong but I think lower compliance means the cone inertia is easier to overcome. High compliant PA speakers to me, need more power to come alive and can sound cardboard like at lower levels. They are in fact designed for small high output applications.
Find a midrange that you really really like that crosses easily from 2-400hz up to 2-4Khz. My favorites to date are large horns 2' by 2' or larger. That's impractical for my home but I found the 18Sound 6ND430 to be easy to use and much to my liking. YMMV
For most of the last 100 years horn tweeters were the kings of low distortion and ultimately that may still be the case. But, in the last 10-15 years domes, ribbons and Heils have enjoyed much improvement and for reasonable costs. SB and Wavecore have excellent offerings from $50-100.
I've been biamping off and on for 40 years and at this point wouldn't bother with the struggle of a passive crossover in the 100-700hz range. YMMV
I may be wrong but I think lower compliance means the cone inertia is easier to overcome. High compliant PA speakers to me, need more power to come alive and can sound cardboard like at lower levels. They are in fact designed for small high output applications.
Find a midrange that you really really like that crosses easily from 2-400hz up to 2-4Khz. My favorites to date are large horns 2' by 2' or larger. That's impractical for my home but I found the 18Sound 6ND430 to be easy to use and much to my liking. YMMV
For most of the last 100 years horn tweeters were the kings of low distortion and ultimately that may still be the case. But, in the last 10-15 years domes, ribbons and Heils have enjoyed much improvement and for reasonable costs. SB and Wavecore have excellent offerings from $50-100.
I've been biamping off and on for 40 years and at this point wouldn't bother with the struggle of a passive crossover in the 100-700hz range. YMMV
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My 2c take on dynamics....
in no necessary order, it's a fuction of:
a. flat frequency response, and a smoothly sloping phase trace (or even better, flat)
b. range of flat response (ie 20-20k)
c average attainable SPL over the entire spectrum
d. headroom available above average SPL over the entire spectrum
e. source material capable of exciting the speaker to it's potential per all the above
So most likely, a well designed PA speaker, with its inherently greater SPL and headroom capability, offers the potential for greater dynamics that most home speakers.
However, home gear, particularly home-theatre, often has a wider freq response range.
Ime, SPL dominates over freq response range.
One caveat with PA is more attention must be placed on gain structure at lower listening levels.
Due to the generally higher sensitivity of PA style speakers, lower amplifier gain is often needed than for home speakers.
If a low preamp level (line level going to amp) is used to keep speaker volume low, S/N ratio suffers and a speaker can sound like it needs to reach a certain volume before it comes alive.
(i don't think compliance or such has any bearing on dynamics.)
in no necessary order, it's a fuction of:
a. flat frequency response, and a smoothly sloping phase trace (or even better, flat)
b. range of flat response (ie 20-20k)
c average attainable SPL over the entire spectrum
d. headroom available above average SPL over the entire spectrum
e. source material capable of exciting the speaker to it's potential per all the above
So most likely, a well designed PA speaker, with its inherently greater SPL and headroom capability, offers the potential for greater dynamics that most home speakers.
However, home gear, particularly home-theatre, often has a wider freq response range.
Ime, SPL dominates over freq response range.
One caveat with PA is more attention must be placed on gain structure at lower listening levels.
Due to the generally higher sensitivity of PA style speakers, lower amplifier gain is often needed than for home speakers.
If a low preamp level (line level going to amp) is used to keep speaker volume low, S/N ratio suffers and a speaker can sound like it needs to reach a certain volume before it comes alive.
(i don't think compliance or such has any bearing on dynamics.)
Its funny you mention that originally I was planning to use my Troel 3WC disconnect the 8 inch from the passive crossover use active crossovers in-between the mid and the 8 inch and keep the passive between the mid and tweeter. But if I am going active crossover then i might as well go large and PA.
There are many high end PA style speakers there must be a way to get descent soud at low voumes, according to Humble Home Made HIFI's Calpamos read a high impedance curve with low mechanical losses(which I do not totally understand) allows proper playing at low volumes.
Ill check it out!
Can't wait till i get to this stage, biamping and active crossovers. Have you taken any drivers yourself and just put it together and let the DSP do the work? How was the end result?
Just so that we are all on the page ( when using terminology );
Theile/Small Parameters ( terms )
From the above Wikipedia link;
Cms
Measured in metres per newton (m/N). Describes the compliance (ie, the inverse of stiffness) of the suspension.
- The more compliant a suspension system is, the lower its stiffness, so the higher the Vas will be.
- Cms is proportional to Vas and thus has the same tolerance ranges.
If one replaces "lower compliant" with higher compliant ( and vice versa ), then the above quote follows established definitions .
🙂
Theile/Small Parameters ( terms )
From the above Wikipedia link;
Cms
Measured in metres per newton (m/N). Describes the compliance (ie, the inverse of stiffness) of the suspension.
- The more compliant a suspension system is, the lower its stiffness, so the higher the Vas will be.
- Cms is proportional to Vas and thus has the same tolerance ranges.
Scholl said:
If one replaces "lower compliant" with higher compliant ( and vice versa ), then the above quote follows established definitions .
🙂
I probably have focused on this for some time in preparation for my design. I looked to define the formula for Dynamic Contrast which is what you are probably talking about. What makes a system dynamic is its spl potential and efficiency. When a high level of this is achieved, you have system that can response very quickly and without much effort to signal changes. So when the explosion hits in the movie, going from conversation level to this high energy event...the system isn't bother in the least to produce this new expectation.
The guitar popping out in your face sounds more like good imaging...maybe...which comes with directivity or room treatment or both. It also sounds like a system with a horn it...which hits all the marks directivity, efficiency, and loudness potential
You mention PA speakers and a system with redundant drivers. Both are going are going towards large surface area which is going to reduce excursion, thus raising spl potential, lowering distortion.
Just read this
Btw whats the answer to this issue? I have pa amps with some unique adjustments, how do I get the signal down for say my compression driver?
The guitar popping out in your face sounds more like good imaging...maybe...which comes with directivity or room treatment or both. It also sounds like a system with a horn it...which hits all the marks directivity, efficiency, and loudness potential
You mention PA speakers and a system with redundant drivers. Both are going are going towards large surface area which is going to reduce excursion, thus raising spl potential, lowering distortion.
- I hope this isn't always true lol what levels are you considering low?
Just read this
ok Mark another one of your quote sis going into my book of notes =)
Btw whats the answer to this issue? I have pa amps with some unique adjustments, how do I get the signal down for say my compression driver?
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Redundant drivers? I am not an expert to understand why but if you can point me in the direction of what you consider new design for my application and design criteria it would be greatly appreciated.
Redundant driver, as in, more than one driver covering the same range....so lets say its a two way...You could have a 15" driver covering from 630hz on down or you might have two 12" covering 630hz on down....or maybe four 10" drivers... In the end its the total surface area increase, whether 1 large driver or several small drivers, covering the same frequency range, that allow lower excursion resulting in better dynamic performance... un strained amplification is no less, apart of the formula.
I think once you understand the formula you'll see that you can create your experience with multiple systems designed properly.
I think once you understand the formula you'll see that you can create your experience with multiple systems designed properly.
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Yes, I learnt this by actually analysing other builds. I understand your point. I am just cutting cost and with a dedicated multichannel DAC I always have the option of purchasing one more power amp the next driver adding the bass cab and DSP ing/tri amping it all in future.
But, two 12 inch will be a great option I will also get some more sensitivity.
Can you just explain what you mean by lower excursion?