I think part of the problem is that with over 316,000 threads and over 5.5 million posts combined with a less than awesome search function, it can be hard for newcomers to find the information that they are looking for. Sure, some people are genuinely too lazy to search, but others are just overwhelmed by the shear volume of information or do not have the luxury of free time to be able to endlessly search only to find conflicting answers.
For example, the first experience of this forum for me was the NAP140 clone thread. I had blindly bought the ebay kit and needed help figuring out what an earth I was supposed to do to get it to power up. That particular thread is over 3500 posts long, and full of hard to find nuggets amongst the noise. I asked for help and the kind people here shared their knowledge and experience. Now a bit over a year later, I have 15 amplifiers in various states of completion and a willingness to help those that are in the position I was back when I started out.
Now I personally don't think that the quality of threads is reducing, because I still find that so much of what people post on here is fascinating. Perhaps as you get older and more experienced on the subject, you lose some of that fascination and a lot of threads just become 'same old, same old'.
As to manners reflecting society, well I have seen both younger people using threads like it was 'Messenger' with 11 posts in rapid succession. But I have also seen older people seemingly taking joy in waving their superior knowledge around and jumping on newbies for asking a question that they themselves had asked only a year or two previously (yeah, sometimes newbies discover the 'find posts by xxx' function)...
I have seen rudeness, impatience, intolerance and ignorance from young and old alike, but also many interesting discussions, interesting people and so much shared knowledge and kindness. As in general society, I find the latter far outnumbers the former.
For example, the first experience of this forum for me was the NAP140 clone thread. I had blindly bought the ebay kit and needed help figuring out what an earth I was supposed to do to get it to power up. That particular thread is over 3500 posts long, and full of hard to find nuggets amongst the noise. I asked for help and the kind people here shared their knowledge and experience. Now a bit over a year later, I have 15 amplifiers in various states of completion and a willingness to help those that are in the position I was back when I started out.
Now I personally don't think that the quality of threads is reducing, because I still find that so much of what people post on here is fascinating. Perhaps as you get older and more experienced on the subject, you lose some of that fascination and a lot of threads just become 'same old, same old'.
As to manners reflecting society, well I have seen both younger people using threads like it was 'Messenger' with 11 posts in rapid succession. But I have also seen older people seemingly taking joy in waving their superior knowledge around and jumping on newbies for asking a question that they themselves had asked only a year or two previously (yeah, sometimes newbies discover the 'find posts by xxx' function)...
I have seen rudeness, impatience, intolerance and ignorance from young and old alike, but also many interesting discussions, interesting people and so much shared knowledge and kindness. As in general society, I find the latter far outnumbers the former.
And, to boot, ignorance hits twice as hard because one doesn't know the terminology to search out the truly useful material, which makes the search engine 100x worse than it is for someone who knows what they're looking for. Or not understand that they found the answer they wanted, albeit in language they can't yet understand. Which is evermore why we need kind souls who can get beginners off the ground and on their way up the learning curve.
There are plenty of new folk, sadly, that have made up their mind before building an understanding of underlying principles, and that's honestly where we see a lot of the "know-it-all" clashes. Even more nefarious is those who sound knowledgeable but only ostensibly, ("guru" types) and spread their unsupported philosophy on highly influenceable newbies who don't know they're talking garbage.
And agree that, having made it through a couple loops of circular arguments, that many topics have lost their appeal. All you see is individuals repeating their dogma, whether it's grounded in reality or not. And as much fun as it is to blame the younger folk for all our ails (I'm one of them, a junior grouch perhaps), those with bad behavior cross the whole spectrum of our posting population.
I've lurked in the thread for a while, long story made short, if the quality of new threads is going "downhill", it's because the people posting are new, and therefore ignorant. (in this subject)
But please remember that they are here and asking, which is what the forum is for.
There's a huge cultural/technological shift going on, and that's that everybody has a reference library in their pocket, I.E., their phones, and yet googling something about DIY audio leads not to a nice clean wiki article, but information overload and no clear answer.
New people here will be old salts soon enough. Don't let your saltiness cloud that.
Smile and help the new people or the hobby withers and dies.
But please remember that they are here and asking, which is what the forum is for.
There's a huge cultural/technological shift going on, and that's that everybody has a reference library in their pocket, I.E., their phones, and yet googling something about DIY audio leads not to a nice clean wiki article, but information overload and no clear answer.
New people here will be old salts soon enough. Don't let your saltiness cloud that.
Smile and help the new people or the hobby withers and dies.
I think part of the problem is that there is an overload of information but a scarcity of understanding. Information without understanding is of no use to anyone.
Facts are the raw data for thinking; no facts means no meaningful thinking is possible. No thinking means no understanding. Unfortunately some people now believe that they do not have to learn any facts because Google can always find facts for them; unfortunately all Google can find is 'proto-facts' i.e. statements which may or may not be true. Other people may even genuinely believe that their own opinions are a valid substitute for facts.
Hence someone searching for answers about DIY audio leads will be left puzzled. The search for answers is itself something of a new phenomenon, arising from modern education. Students now seek 'the answer' to whatever question has been posed; a few decades ago they were more likely to seek knowledge, albeit knowledge possibly restricted to that needed to answer the most likely questions to come up in a forthcoming exam.
Facts are the raw data for thinking; no facts means no meaningful thinking is possible. No thinking means no understanding. Unfortunately some people now believe that they do not have to learn any facts because Google can always find facts for them; unfortunately all Google can find is 'proto-facts' i.e. statements which may or may not be true. Other people may even genuinely believe that their own opinions are a valid substitute for facts.
Hence someone searching for answers about DIY audio leads will be left puzzled. The search for answers is itself something of a new phenomenon, arising from modern education. Students now seek 'the answer' to whatever question has been posed; a few decades ago they were more likely to seek knowledge, albeit knowledge possibly restricted to that needed to answer the most likely questions to come up in a forthcoming exam.
This forum is set up for discussion and not as an educational resource. So it is like a public library with hundreds of transcripts spread all over the floor, albeit within a few, broad sections.
I assume the folks who run this forum don't have ambitions beyond this.
Edit: I should add it is also a vendor's forum and a place for selling things to people, including "educational" books.
I assume the folks who run this forum don't have ambitions beyond this.
Edit: I should add it is also a vendor's forum and a place for selling things to people, including "educational" books.
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Too true. I know the people who run this forum and can assure you that they have't the slightest ambition at all!
I wasn't deliberately trying to offend. I think this is factual. I've been a member here for a very long time so I have a lot of experience. The forum hasn't changed much for donkeys' years. Suggestions for change and help seem to fall on deaf ears.
How do you explain it?
I'm not sure I agree completely- read some publications from the 1950s - Radio Amateur Handbook, Popular Electronics, etc. - and you will find that they were full of 'cookbook' projects with definite answers.
Recently I participated in a thread here at diyaudio where a request for a straightforward answer elicited contradictory responses with a dose of 'you don't know anything and are lazy' flavouring added. I can overlook stuff like this, usually - sometimes it's just a difference in writing style - but it may intimidate a beginner.
OTOH, I do see a lot of 'show me a picture (photo) of where to attach the components' vs 'show me the schematic' - which would agree with the above points made by DF96. Building from 'a picture' can create problems if there are 'off board' components like tube sockets.
I see this as a problem with PCB-based projects in particular.
It's tough enough for beginners to follow a P2P built circuit. Making sense of a double sided PCB -"forget it!"
Some people just cannot believe that they might need to spend more than a few minutes to translate between schematic and the built circuit.
Be careful what you wish for!
I've seen the 'new forum software on the way' answer given recently.
A couple of forums I participated in were ruined by 'improved software' which destroyed a lot of archived material.
Nothing says:"We don't value your participation" as much as deleting past contributions.
Sure.
I'm not wishing for anything but I have ideas.
On the subject of that video, attracting new DIYers, I would challenge folks reading this thread to take a look at the DIYaudio home page and pretend you are a newbie. Just think about how the forum comes across to a new visitor.
I could list lots of things that are not optimal. Lots of things. "by fanatics for fanatics" is just a small example. Where is the friendly - "absolute beginners welcome, see here how to get started..."
The site itself hasn't changed much since I've been a member. It's extremely bad on mobile devices. It even looks old like most of its membership.
But my original point was about finding info and education. It is not set up for this so it is not as useful for a wide range of needs as it could be. A lot of the meat and expertise resides in the "kitchen party" in the Lounge! (John Curl related thread).
If my comments offend then I apologize. I'm just holding up a mirror.
I'm not wishing for anything but I have ideas.
On the subject of that video, attracting new DIYers, I would challenge folks reading this thread to take a look at the DIYaudio home page and pretend you are a newbie. Just think about how the forum comes across to a new visitor.
I could list lots of things that are not optimal. Lots of things. "by fanatics for fanatics" is just a small example. Where is the friendly - "absolute beginners welcome, see here how to get started..."
The site itself hasn't changed much since I've been a member. It's extremely bad on mobile devices. It even looks old like most of its membership.
But my original point was about finding info and education. It is not set up for this so it is not as useful for a wide range of needs as it could be. A lot of the meat and expertise resides in the "kitchen party" in the Lounge! (John Curl related thread).
If my comments offend then I apologize. I'm just holding up a mirror.
The clandestine commercial interests are fairly damaging, as many can't even spot it. The disclosed commercial interests are mostly innocuous. There was an example a few years back of vested commercial interests really swamping the discussion in a subforum, but the problem went away on its own, I don't think the mods acted. However, these are relatively small bumps.
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Perhaps Twitter is a better venue for those who like their information in smaller 'servings'?
I had a recent experience with 'it's too much trouble taking a picture and labelling it and posting it here; I'll wave my phone in front of my project for 10 minutes and invite you to watch on YouTube'.....
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