Can I take this for some inchoate expression of disagreement?
Engineering design offices don't work like that. Perhaps you don't have any real-world experience though, and everything you relate to is academic, like this argument.
Of course in every design office there are those who can (and do), and those who should be teaching. There being so much demand for teaching posts, though, we can't get rid of them all, so we make them project managers.
Some of the best engineers I've met have little or no qualifications. The first task you are given will find you out. Either you can design it, and it works, or you can at least show the capability of learning to design it, or you can't.
Perhaps you imagine that cheating is new, and only arrived with the internet. No. It's as old as Adam and Eve.
Don't get me wrong. I had some wonderful teachers, but although their subjects were physics, or chemistry, the real lessons went a lot deeper.
"Judge not, lest ye be judged."
"He who is without blame, let him cast the first stone."
People with the capacity to answer questions will in general be sufficiently alert and well-intentioned to avoid short-circuiting correspondents learning processes. There are undoubtedly those whose teaching skills leave something to be desired, but this is statistically less likely in the general population than amongst university lecturers, in my experience.
Now, can we get on with exchanging information instead of erecting barriers to its exchange?
Hear! Hear! In my opinion, most of my fellow faculty had no business instructing young people. They are more likely to receive a proper education on this forum. Regards
I'm not sure why you might jump to that conclusion. I have many years experience of working in an important industry, where mistakes could have significant financial, statutory or safety outcomes.counter culture said:
Agreed. Did I suggest otherwise? However, I do believe that cheating has become more widespread in education since we stopped calling it cheating and regarding it as a serious moral issue, and instead started calling it plagiarism and regarding it as a minor cultural or training issue.
I think most of the best engineers I have met have graduate (or near) qualifications, although not always in engineering. Some of the best were PhD scientists.
I'm not sure who you intend to insult here, but fortunately neither apply to me.
I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience. Most university lecturers I have met were good teachers, although of course not all were. A few were useless teachers, and one or two lacked subject knowledge, but most were OK. On the other hand, many people in the general population will ramble inchoately when asked to teach something.
I'm 17. I'm taking Physics A-level (amongst others).
If I was stuck (after exhausting Wiki, library, classmates, teacher, relations), I'd probably ask here. It is by far more convenient to check on Wikipedia, so I rather think this is a mute point.
Chris
Declaring date of birth would not usually be helpful, although people may always do so if they wish. Neither would exams. Students can be any age, and at any level. Some struggle with Ohm's Law, while others are doing Masters projects. The issue is not age or experience, but context and motivation. Genuine request for knowledge, or attempted cheating?
Friends, What is the thought process behind any forums. Receive ,learn, add, and then share. Each of us who is here is a part of this system. I agree some students who learn from this forum never show up after there problem is solved. this happens with all ages, and no matter whats the technical strength of the member is. But we sure get some growing gems who will take equal efforts understanding that they need to give back to this forum.
also non members are able to read the threads. So this way knowledge is spread. When we design something ( putting efforts for the best possible ). we never start R& D from Zero. we read different forums, Read books, Application notes etc. this all shares there hard earned knowledge with us. In other words we take help from others and don't reinvent the wheel.
Typical about students (as a kid), they want to spend more time with their friends enjoying life. here with me , I belong to electronics stream. and is into embedded domain. sometimes students around come to me with request to help them with their assignment programs, I am always ready to do that. but I only guide them and just would explain them the approach, but never write a line of code for them.
When a question is asked Let try to understand what is the purpose of the question and accordingly should be answered.
This is just what I feel, deeper thoughts are welcome.
also non members are able to read the threads. So this way knowledge is spread. When we design something ( putting efforts for the best possible ). we never start R& D from Zero. we read different forums, Read books, Application notes etc. this all shares there hard earned knowledge with us. In other words we take help from others and don't reinvent the wheel.
Typical about students (as a kid), they want to spend more time with their friends enjoying life. here with me , I belong to electronics stream. and is into embedded domain. sometimes students around come to me with request to help them with their assignment programs, I am always ready to do that. but I only guide them and just would explain them the approach, but never write a line of code for them.
When a question is asked Let try to understand what is the purpose of the question and accordingly should be answered.
This is just what I feel, deeper thoughts are welcome.
lordie.
Some of the most preposterous elitism I've ever had he misfortune to read.
The problem (if there is one) is minute in the context of this forum - probably less than one post in a thousand or better.
Of those, some will be in to rip an idea off, others just lack the skill to express the need to learn clearly. How to decide? And why?
Proportion here folks. And a sense of goodwill.
Some of the most preposterous elitism I've ever had he misfortune to read.
The problem (if there is one) is minute in the context of this forum - probably less than one post in a thousand or better.
Of those, some will be in to rip an idea off, others just lack the skill to express the need to learn clearly. How to decide? And why?
Proportion here folks. And a sense of goodwill.
Maybe it's just me, but I like to think everyone here is a student at some level, including the Pass', Cordell's, Geddes', etc etc.
I'm all for help and tutoring, but DIY certainly applies to school assignments.
I'm all for help and tutoring, but DIY certainly applies to school assignments.
WARNING: Opinionated post...
I just don't see the issue with the topic
I have barely seen newbie (or even intermediate level question) questions straightforwardly, and thoroughly answered on this forum... the problem pointed is a non-issue as, at most, students would be given rough directions as to where to search, or some partial answers (which sometimes are even not validated), on one particular question... I don't even conceive a whole project being solved thanks to DIYAudio, not to speak of a whole university course!!!
If there are people in need for explanations, and people nice enough to share their knowledge, just let them do.
I think you overestimate the comprehensiveness and technical level of DIYAudio..... (don't get me wrong, I still find the Forum interesting, and enjoy spending time reading it, but it is in my opinion far from a spoon feeding haven for electronics students...)
Then you might ask about "should students be allowed searching on internet?", and the answer in my opinion is : of course yes! internet it is part of modern life, and part of professional life ...
Most of us are not taught to be super theoreticians, but to be efficient and successful in their work ... internet can help them understand what teachers are sometimes unable to do (or do in an interesting manner)...
I just don't see the issue with the topic
I have barely seen newbie (or even intermediate level question) questions straightforwardly, and thoroughly answered on this forum... the problem pointed is a non-issue as, at most, students would be given rough directions as to where to search, or some partial answers (which sometimes are even not validated), on one particular question... I don't even conceive a whole project being solved thanks to DIYAudio, not to speak of a whole university course!!!
If there are people in need for explanations, and people nice enough to share their knowledge, just let them do.
I think you overestimate the comprehensiveness and technical level of DIYAudio..... (don't get me wrong, I still find the Forum interesting, and enjoy spending time reading it, but it is in my opinion far from a spoon feeding haven for electronics students...)
Then you might ask about "should students be allowed searching on internet?", and the answer in my opinion is : of course yes! internet it is part of modern life, and part of professional life ...
Most of us are not taught to be super theoreticians, but to be efficient and successful in their work ... internet can help them understand what teachers are sometimes unable to do (or do in an interesting manner)...
I am an electrical engineering student but I din't singup at Diyaudio to help me with my assignments and classwork. Diyaudio is all about a hobby and a search for 'the ultimate' system one can build comfortably. 'Newbies' get to learn from other members' experience by reading through the posts, where's the harm in asking a question or two at the end of the thread? I don't mean to sound rude but, what do you lose by answering the question? Someday that person will be a pro and I don't think he/she will hesitate to answer a newbie question.
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I started this thread to hear opinion.
A significant proportion of the respondents seem to take umbrage at the views being expressed.
The biggest problem seems to be the assumption that we on DIYaudio do not help or do not want to help.
I know where I stand and many others like me give their knowledge freely without any repayment other than the satisfaction of helping others.
Let's stop the narking and simply give comments for and/or against and everything in between.
A significant proportion of the respondents seem to take umbrage at the views being expressed.
The biggest problem seems to be the assumption that we on DIYaudio do not help or do not want to help.
I know where I stand and many others like me give their knowledge freely without any repayment other than the satisfaction of helping others.
Let's stop the narking and simply give comments for and/or against and everything in between.
AndrewT,
No umbrage taken! and please do not take it for yourself or any other.... Noone meant to say there are not helpful members.... it's just that I do not see DIY audio as a comprehensive source of information.
Most of the topics discussed are very specific (about such or such component , .. such or such implementation... analyzing a certain circuit), and I have never seen a topic where someone would throw an academic problem on the table and other members chewing all the details for him (I'm ready to be proven otherwise if you can point me to such a thread).
Having said that.. I think student or pupils should be helped just as much as other members (if not more) as long as they show willingness to learn.... we/you should not worry about the others (the ones who just wait for a ready meal) as they are usually spotted by knowledgeable members who usually very quickly show disinterest in their threads!
No umbrage taken! and please do not take it for yourself or any other.... Noone meant to say there are not helpful members.... it's just that I do not see DIY audio as a comprehensive source of information.
Most of the topics discussed are very specific (about such or such component , .. such or such implementation... analyzing a certain circuit), and I have never seen a topic where someone would throw an academic problem on the table and other members chewing all the details for him (I'm ready to be proven otherwise if you can point me to such a thread).
Having said that.. I think student or pupils should be helped just as much as other members (if not more) as long as they show willingness to learn.... we/you should not worry about the others (the ones who just wait for a ready meal) as they are usually spotted by knowledgeable members who usually very quickly show disinterest in their threads!
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in order
Yes
Yes
Hell No
There is very little about anything audio related in a typical EE curriculum today, except perhaps one or two linear circuit theory courses. A little cheating there won't get anyone a degree. If you can do the calculus, differential equations, field theory, and multiple physics courses, and so on, you can do linear circuits. That's my opinion.
Further - Help everyone if you have the time and feel good about doing it.
If you don't, don't.
Since all replies are voluntary, if you smell a bad situation, don't reply, or simply make a polite comment.
+2 internets Lazybutt,
never said that before...
I've been teaching and lecturing at university level for many years. I find that the students what are worth-wild are the ones that ask questions, have many sources for any particular answer and show intimate understanding. If a student gets an answer freely they are shooting themselves in the foot by not gaining understanding of 'how and why' which is very obvious upon simple questioning. This Questioning is always a part of my followup "interview" with students before I record a grade.
I think that if we keep to the Do It Yourself concept and the dialectical method we are good. It's up to the student to honor themselves and truly understand an answer even if it is spoon fed to them at first.
never said that before...
I've been teaching and lecturing at university level for many years. I find that the students what are worth-wild are the ones that ask questions, have many sources for any particular answer and show intimate understanding. If a student gets an answer freely they are shooting themselves in the foot by not gaining understanding of 'how and why' which is very obvious upon simple questioning. This Questioning is always a part of my followup "interview" with students before I record a grade.
I think that if we keep to the Do It Yourself concept and the dialectical method we are good. It's up to the student to honor themselves and truly understand an answer even if it is spoon fed to them at first.
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In many UK universities students get marks for correct answers, not necessarily understanding. In my experience, somewhere between 10% and 20% of students cheat on any particular piece of work. The dim ones think this won't be spotted. The brighter ones know that no official sanctions are likely to be imposed. Hopefully other countries have not allowed their education system to become so degraded.
To reiterate what AndrewT has said, we are not talking about refusing to help students. Far from it. I am very happy to help a student gain understanding. I am not happy to help a student cheat. I am surprised that so many people here seem to regard cheating as acceptable, but I guess on my own statistics 10-20% will be happy with this.
To reiterate what AndrewT has said, we are not talking about refusing to help students. Far from it. I am very happy to help a student gain understanding. I am not happy to help a student cheat. I am surprised that so many people here seem to regard cheating as acceptable, but I guess on my own statistics 10-20% will be happy with this.
My statistics come in the 32% which were not made up.
Marking lab reports at a 'proper' university I found about 10% had issues such as copying experimental data from other students, or apparently joint write-ups submitted separately.
Marking homework assignments at a 'non-selective university' I found about 20% had issues, including blatant copying off each other or the internet. In one case an identical (wrong) answer had simply been printed off three times (or printed once and photocopied) and submitted under different names.
I might not have noticed all the suspect submissions, and in each case there were several markers so collaborators who happened to have their work marked by different markers would not be spotted. Hence I believe my statistics could be underestimates.
Marking lab reports at a 'proper' university I found about 10% had issues such as copying experimental data from other students, or apparently joint write-ups submitted separately.
Marking homework assignments at a 'non-selective university' I found about 20% had issues, including blatant copying off each other or the internet. In one case an identical (wrong) answer had simply been printed off three times (or printed once and photocopied) and submitted under different names.
I might not have noticed all the suspect submissions, and in each case there were several markers so collaborators who happened to have their work marked by different markers would not be spotted. Hence I believe my statistics could be underestimates.
I dunno. I don't think it's much of a problem. Anyway we don't always know what a person's motivation is when they ask a question.
Also, what's cheating in this context? When I was at U 40 yrs ago there was a bunch of us who used to spend the lunch hours alternately savaging and fixing each others' assignments in between solving the world's problems, deciding where to party, and massaging the Chinese guy's essays (and we got him through - he was writing OK English at the end).
We were pretty fierce:
"Patricia will have your guts for garters if you don't footnote this stuff."
"If you don't read the books, you won't pass. You do realize that, don't you?"
" What does this paragraph mean? What's your argument?"
We were insufferable.
The idea that an ordinary person can get maximum benefit from education by not relying on others for assistance, validation, knowledge, and so forth, is absurd. I 'd have gone down in flames had it not been for those mad lunches.
Now we have the internet which is an opportunity to look for that kind of help anytime.
I don't think academic freeloaders are a problem here as long as there's some rigour in the ongoing discussion. They'll drop out.
Also, what's cheating in this context? When I was at U 40 yrs ago there was a bunch of us who used to spend the lunch hours alternately savaging and fixing each others' assignments in between solving the world's problems, deciding where to party, and massaging the Chinese guy's essays (and we got him through - he was writing OK English at the end).
We were pretty fierce:
"Patricia will have your guts for garters if you don't footnote this stuff."
"If you don't read the books, you won't pass. You do realize that, don't you?"
" What does this paragraph mean? What's your argument?"
We were insufferable.
The idea that an ordinary person can get maximum benefit from education by not relying on others for assistance, validation, knowledge, and so forth, is absurd. I 'd have gone down in flames had it not been for those mad lunches.
Now we have the internet which is an opportunity to look for that kind of help anytime.
I don't think academic freeloaders are a problem here as long as there's some rigour in the ongoing discussion. They'll drop out.
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