Hi MaVo
I am not sure that I understand "I went Earl's way first ..." because what you are doing is exactly what I do as well. I don't see a difference. I have a tightly sealed concrete basement with three subs - one in a corner two along other walls, all EQ'd with DSP - that is "Earl's way".
I've often been tempted by the thought of multiple subs but have nowhere really to put them, so I've been forced to work with the room and the speaker system. I've achieved quite good bass quality without subs so far.
The key to my room is it's very cluttered and full of stuff except in the immediate listening area.. I've always considered this a deficit, but perhaps.....
The key to my room is it's very cluttered and full of stuff except in the immediate listening area.. I've always considered this a deficit, but perhaps.....
Extreme clutter would help the bass, certainly, but not so good for the highs.
My room is extremely uncluttered and as such multiple subs are both feasible and effective, with no degradation of imaging and spaciousness.
My room is extremely uncluttered and as such multiple subs are both feasible and effective, with no degradation of imaging and spaciousness.
I did fail to mention my room is fairly empty for the moment. There are two chairs, one leather and one fabric, an area rug and a wall-mount CD shelf. I don't expect my bass woes to disappear when I bring in a few more things, but it will help tame the slightly too-live-for-me midrange.
Hi Earl,
sorry for being unclear. I followed your instructions on good bass, but i thought that in your approach the listener position is a fixed thing, or in other words you take the room as it is given and you change sub position and eq only. If listener position is a variable in your approach as well, then i was simply confused.
sorry for being unclear. I followed your instructions on good bass, but i thought that in your approach the listener position is a fixed thing, or in other words you take the room as it is given and you change sub position and eq only. If listener position is a variable in your approach as well, then i was simply confused.
It might be the false ceilings actually make the room boundary on top higher and together act as a bass trap on top, a reflector on the bottom floor - somehow this makes for an asymmetric "stratified bass" profile in the vertical direction. I think changing your false ceiling with stick lumber and gypsum drywall to form a true hard boundary will make the bass symmetric in the vertical direction.
I had time to try the Cardas speaker placement last night. This brings my woofer centers 3' from the sidewalls and pretty much 5' from the back walls. This either forces my chair to be very close to nearfield (equilateral triangle) or close to the small backwall next to the stair case. Either way, this improved things a lot, along with some revision of my EQ (re-balanced BSC and EQ @ Fb) scheme in miniDSP.
It makes for an awkward room layout as I lose that 5' of floor space and this is not a dedicated audio room after all. I still have to try some elevation; funny how I couldn't find anything handy just high enough yet not too much to support the 110lb speakers with peace of mind. 🙂 I'll have to cut some lumber to try this I suppose. If a ~10" boost ends-up being non-detrimental, might be I'll just build bases with casters for them and roll them out in the Cardas spots when I'm in for a more involved session.
It makes for an awkward room layout as I lose that 5' of floor space and this is not a dedicated audio room after all. I still have to try some elevation; funny how I couldn't find anything handy just high enough yet not too much to support the 110lb speakers with peace of mind. 🙂 I'll have to cut some lumber to try this I suppose. If a ~10" boost ends-up being non-detrimental, might be I'll just build bases with casters for them and roll them out in the Cardas spots when I'm in for a more involved session.
You might take a look at Jim Smith's book: "Get Better Sound" - I have found it useful for tips on setting up my system in my room. A lot of it is dead obvious, but there are a few things here and there that are not. It emphasizes methodology.
I posted originally from the phone and apparently it didn't go through. And I haven't seen anyone else suggest it so I am mentioning it again just in case...
Bi-amped means there is at least the possibility of one of the woofers being wired out of phase (reverse polarity) when you moved them. That would certainly affect bass response at the listening position and along the walls.
Try playing some mono tracks to see where the images form.
Just a simple check.
Bi-amped means there is at least the possibility of one of the woofers being wired out of phase (reverse polarity) when you moved them. That would certainly affect bass response at the listening position and along the walls.
Try playing some mono tracks to see where the images form.
Just a simple check.
I made a remarkably similar if less detailed suggestion yesterday, certainly one of the things I would look at closely. My somewhat similar basement room is just the reverse, an over abundance of bass..
Out-of-phase woofers are not the issue, it's something I checked before posting and even tried reversing on one to see, which predictably killed most any bass, anywhere in that room.
I don't think this has been mentioned so far in this thread, but it's something that is a possibility... Your basement may be acting like it is one side of a very large box. It seems like you have several very firm nearby boundaries (foundation walls, etc.) but other boundaries that are not very firm. I'm not just thinking of the drop ceiling but the floor leading to the upper floor(s) of the house as well. Low Bass can propagate right through these structures, which in the USA are usually just enough wood to support the floor load and not stiff. You could have a giant suckout below your "stratum" that is formed by whatever acoustical resonances that your home's structure, as driven from the current location of your speakers, has created. The entire floor, an upper floor, or the wall and/or roof (large areas) could be slightly flexing at low frequency like a giant passive radiator, causing a standing wave to set up in parallel with the basement floor, creating the null you describe. Because this is happening in the bass region, it may be very difficult if not impossible to fix the problem.
There is one tried and true way to get very good bass with very little amount of room interaction that may work - place the sub(s) extremely close to your listening position, e.g. next to or behind you. You are now sitting in the near field and the room modes are relatively much less significant than the direct sound. If you are essentially the only listener, this can really work great. Not so good if you are trying to provide the same soundfield to multiple locations a la a theater setup.
If you can cross over from the subs to the main speakers around 100Hz, where you say things are OK, this might be a useful approach to try.
Over the years as I have set up speakers in different rooms in different homes and venues I gained more and more respect for the (often deleterious) influence of certain home listening environments.
There is one tried and true way to get very good bass with very little amount of room interaction that may work - place the sub(s) extremely close to your listening position, e.g. next to or behind you. You are now sitting in the near field and the room modes are relatively much less significant than the direct sound. If you are essentially the only listener, this can really work great. Not so good if you are trying to provide the same soundfield to multiple locations a la a theater setup.
If you can cross over from the subs to the main speakers around 100Hz, where you say things are OK, this might be a useful approach to try.
Over the years as I have set up speakers in different rooms in different homes and venues I gained more and more respect for the (often deleterious) influence of certain home listening environments.
Flexing and absorbing constructions may prove to be beneficial, I'd leave them in place anyhow. Modal room resonances are rather unpredictable when boundaries are lossy, but in general they will be less prominent than with highly reflective boundaries. Bear in mind there's also a time domain component (which EQ-ing doesn't address) as in 'the more reflective the boundaries, the higher the Q of every modal function'. Now our ears are not the most sensitive at those low frequencies, but sustained standing waves aren't going to deliver a good bass and lower midrange.
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