Hi everyone
i am new to this forum, and i would need help if any expert can do it.
I would need the crossover diagram, with the component values indicated, for a pair of proac response 1 (the first series of 1990/91, the one that had external crossovers.)
I can't find any information on the web about these particular crossovers, and i need to replicate the original circuit and values.
if there is anyone who can help me i would be very grateful.
Thank you
Luca
i am new to this forum, and i would need help if any expert can do it.
I would need the crossover diagram, with the component values indicated, for a pair of proac response 1 (the first series of 1990/91, the one that had external crossovers.)
I can't find any information on the web about these particular crossovers, and i need to replicate the original circuit and values.
if there is anyone who can help me i would be very grateful.
Thank you
Luca
Welcome to the forum!
Are we talking about the speakers shown in the attached image?
I also can't fine any information about the external crossovers, but I'll give your search a nudge.
What do you actually have in your possession? Just the drivers and enclosure?
Perhaps giving more details might lead to a suggestion for a suitable crossover.
Are we talking about the speakers shown in the attached image?
I also can't fine any information about the external crossovers, but I'll give your search a nudge.
What do you actually have in your possession? Just the drivers and enclosure?
Perhaps giving more details might lead to a suggestion for a suitable crossover.
Attachments
i asked proac, but they don't provide data on crossovers. I would like to replace some components, but unfortunately their value is not indicated
I would need to know the exact value of the electrolytic capacitor and inductances, and I would like to know what the little black "cylinder" on the right is.
ok,thank you
but that little black cylinder, with two thin threads sticking out, what could it be?
but that little black cylinder, with two thin threads sticking out, what could it be?
The bigger question is why do you need to change the components?
The inductors are air core = low distortion, the caps are nice film.
Only the larger el cap, could be swapped for a new if it has dried out over time. It's probably used as a impedance linearization, so no need for a super expensive film cap on that place.
The inductors are air core = low distortion, the caps are nice film.
Only the larger el cap, could be swapped for a new if it has dried out over time. It's probably used as a impedance linearization, so no need for a super expensive film cap on that place.
the el cap is 32 years old...80uf 100v
I would like to leave the coils and Solens in place, and replace the resistors and the electrolytic capacitor with something more reliable.
I would like to leave the coils and Solens in place, and replace the resistors and the electrolytic capacitor with something more reliable.
Resistors are fine ... they are 9W so super reliable in such a small speaker
el lyt, sure might require a change.
Are you satisfied with the sound of the speakers?
I would spend the money on firstly a sub, then a DSP to correct the freq response.
If the tweeter used ferrofluid, then that can have gone, and that would probably change the upper sound a little ..... I think you can fill in new oil if you are carefull 😉 ....
https://www.scan-speak.dk/product/d2010-851300/
https://speakerrepairshop.nl/en/instructions/replace-ferrofluid-in-tweeter/c-36
Maybe start by doing a measurement og the response to see if it matches the original response you might be able to find on the web.
my 2 cent 😉
el lyt, sure might require a change.
Are you satisfied with the sound of the speakers?
I would spend the money on firstly a sub, then a DSP to correct the freq response.
If the tweeter used ferrofluid, then that can have gone, and that would probably change the upper sound a little ..... I think you can fill in new oil if you are carefull 😉 ....
https://www.scan-speak.dk/product/d2010-851300/
https://speakerrepairshop.nl/en/instructions/replace-ferrofluid-in-tweeter/c-36
Maybe start by doing a measurement og the response to see if it matches the original response you might be able to find on the web.
my 2 cent 😉
Multimeters are not good at low value resistors, but luckily it says 6.8 ohm so you are good. Those cement resistors are not known for their sonic quality in the audio chain and can be upgraded to higher quality ones. Check out hificollective and read on forums and group tests. Keep it at 9 watt though. A 1 W resistor might melt, or something.
I will replace resistors with Mills MRA 12 watt non-inductive.
I'm still searching for a good 80uf 100v electrolytic cap.
Mundorf has an 82uf. Can't find an 80uf.
I'm still searching for a good 80uf 100v electrolytic cap.
Mundorf has an 82uf. Can't find an 80uf.
Not to start a war .... but I for one will not be able to hear the different in sound of two resistors with same values ...... and here of course both the L and R value should be the same.
You can change for low inductive resistors, and that might have a little impact on the sound as it will have an impact on the freq response, whether it will be better or worse depends on the rest of the components ... if it sits in series with another coil and the L value has been taken into account then it will probably change for the worse ....
Spend the time and money better 🙂
My 2 cent
You can change for low inductive resistors, and that might have a little impact on the sound as it will have an impact on the freq response, whether it will be better or worse depends on the rest of the components ... if it sits in series with another coil and the L value has been taken into account then it will probably change for the worse ....
Spend the time and money better 🙂
My 2 cent
Use the 82uF capacitor to replace the 80uF. There will be no audible difference.
Capacitors are not exact in value and can vary by plus or minus 5% or even 10% from their marked value.
Capacitors are not exact in value and can vary by plus or minus 5% or even 10% from their marked value.
It would be nice if you can draw a schematic of the crossover, this way it will be clear what the component is. It appears to be a coil in a LCR section, but can't be sure without seeing the other side of the board.
The only sensible replacement is the electrolytic cap, as its value can be off due to age. A 82uF cap is well within the normal tolerance of a 80uF electrolytic one (10%). Replace with the same type e.g. electrolytic. Replacing resistors, film caps and air core coils is a waste of time IMHO.
The ferrofluid replacement is another good suggestion, if the tweeter does have it.
Ralf
All this is a waste of time and resources in my book. Even the electro cap may just be fine, you need to measure it for value, ESR and losses before knowing if it's good or not.
Replacing ferro fluid in the tweeter is a sound suggestion, or replacing the tweet if this is too much trouble
But taking into account the age of the speakers it's very likely that the suspension of your mid woofers is now stiffer, especially the surrounds. I would really test the drivers before everything else and then decide if the surrounds need replacement.
The XO components look like good quality ones and will be my last concern.
Replacing ferro fluid in the tweeter is a sound suggestion, or replacing the tweet if this is too much trouble
But taking into account the age of the speakers it's very likely that the suspension of your mid woofers is now stiffer, especially the surrounds. I would really test the drivers before everything else and then decide if the surrounds need replacement.
The XO components look like good quality ones and will be my last concern.
Hello,
Are you sure the surround is stiffer ? Quality of Seas rubber is good no ?
The caps value has certainly drifted. If it in // with the woofer, both the ESR and capacitance value could change the bass behavior...tightness for instance. But we do know what it is without shematic... second order low pass, part of a LC or LCR with the little black element ?
Not an easy value to get, but Falcon Acoustic has some values from this Elcap yet perhaps.
The MILLS... way too much colored resistor despite being ayrton perry winding, whike it may temper the solen cap character which is rough in serie with the signal while having a lot of contrast, i.e, subjective dynamic than rock and pop music enthusiasts may like(can be left if in // position with the drivers as they are helper there and more harmless)
A proper refurbishment and tweak could be
1 - find around 80 uF value what capacitance sound best from 78 uF to 86 uF. So need a main cap around the lowest 78 uF value then climb by adding 1 uF increment. // too much caps lowisch esr too much there, so you need several littlier cap to // only one, for illustration 78//1 then 78//2 uF ...etc. Tip : mkt or mkp measure precise for the second cap and cost cheap, look at tlhp.com for instance.
2) since you have found what subjectivly sound best... for instance 82 uF then refine around with 0,47 uf then to 0,1 uF.
Then it may sounds better than the original.
3) I would swap the serie tweeter caps (looks like a third order high pass) for something better than the Solen but it will change the sonic signature of the loudspeaker. Jantzen Superiir but quite big and large diameter leads or CSA from Clarity Cap for two different sounding character.
4) I would invest this ferrofluid thing, cleaning up the dryed or sticky with time ferrofluid in the gap of the magnet and on the voice coil (carefully)
5) I would keep the expotus serie with the tweeter and only for fun make a try with something really more clearer as a Mundorf Supreme resist (big diameter lead may be too much for the tiny pcb holes). I will keep all the // Solen with the drivers wherenthey are.
My two cents. While it should sounds way better it however will not give you another loudspeaker. But 30 years, yep needs at least the lythic cap job imho.
Are you sure the surround is stiffer ? Quality of Seas rubber is good no ?
The caps value has certainly drifted. If it in // with the woofer, both the ESR and capacitance value could change the bass behavior...tightness for instance. But we do know what it is without shematic... second order low pass, part of a LC or LCR with the little black element ?
Not an easy value to get, but Falcon Acoustic has some values from this Elcap yet perhaps.
The MILLS... way too much colored resistor despite being ayrton perry winding, whike it may temper the solen cap character which is rough in serie with the signal while having a lot of contrast, i.e, subjective dynamic than rock and pop music enthusiasts may like(can be left if in // position with the drivers as they are helper there and more harmless)
A proper refurbishment and tweak could be
1 - find around 80 uF value what capacitance sound best from 78 uF to 86 uF. So need a main cap around the lowest 78 uF value then climb by adding 1 uF increment. // too much caps lowisch esr too much there, so you need several littlier cap to // only one, for illustration 78//1 then 78//2 uF ...etc. Tip : mkt or mkp measure precise for the second cap and cost cheap, look at tlhp.com for instance.
2) since you have found what subjectivly sound best... for instance 82 uF then refine around with 0,47 uf then to 0,1 uF.
Then it may sounds better than the original.
3) I would swap the serie tweeter caps (looks like a third order high pass) for something better than the Solen but it will change the sonic signature of the loudspeaker. Jantzen Superiir but quite big and large diameter leads or CSA from Clarity Cap for two different sounding character.
4) I would invest this ferrofluid thing, cleaning up the dryed or sticky with time ferrofluid in the gap of the magnet and on the voice coil (carefully)
5) I would keep the expotus serie with the tweeter and only for fun make a try with something really more clearer as a Mundorf Supreme resist (big diameter lead may be too much for the tiny pcb holes). I will keep all the // Solen with the drivers wherenthey are.
My two cents. While it should sounds way better it however will not give you another loudspeaker. But 30 years, yep needs at least the lythic cap job imho.
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How can I be sure, it was just a suggestion, I'm not the owner of that set of Proacs.
Seas rubber might be good, but for how long, 30 years?
The longest lasting surrounds that keep driver's parameters intact IMHO are cloth and paper. Rubber, pfff.
As for the caps drifting that much I don't know. I regularly remove BP caps from old Yamaha and Kawai organs and very rarely some of them will be this much off so to need to bin them. Most often they measure just fine on the positive side of their specified value with tiny ESR and Vloss. Keep in mind these are usually Nichicons and Nippon Chemi-cons, all made in Japan. Big electros are a different story, but that 80uF cap is most likely a BP. Until I test it out of the cct I wouldn't spend money on replacemets.
OK thank you
I started the thread asking if anyone had the schematic, just because I can't find it and I am unable to draw it.
I will definitely send the tweeter and midwoofer to a laboratory to have them measured and to change tweeter's ferrofluid.
Midwoofer's rubber seems to be fine,and I don't know if there are any specific products to treat it.
In the meantime I will do a small restoration of the cabinets, one of them has a small dent on the back. Maybe I will also change the binding posts on cabinet and filters, they don't look very good quality and have small traces of oxide.
I'd like to try with this cap:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mcap_bipolar.html
and then try if I notice any differences.in case I am not satisfied, I will try with these:
https://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/a...capacitor-nonpolarised-reversible-series.html
I don't know what could be the best choice. Perhaps the second is closer to the original design.
about the resistors, you say that the Mills are not appropriate?