I've been wanting to build a "Solo Piano Speaker". That would be a stereo speaker system that is specialized for playing recorded performances of acoustic piano. My vision of this would be two bi-ampped drivers per side.
The thing about a real piano in the room is that the sound comes from the a large 6 or 7 foot wide space, not a point. So my "piano speakers" would be placed no more than 6 feet apart in the center of the room ad be omni-directional. Then just like a real piano a listen could walk in a circle around it. I think this is the only way you'd ever hear a recording that sounds "real".
Here is another un-related idea.... Frank Sinatra invented a kind of vocal sound that could not be heard prior to recording. It is common now. He sang at very low volume into a mic that was very close. Before singers were told to "project" their voice so they could be heard in a large venue. Recording changed that. So even voice is really like an electric guitar in that what you hear is the sum of the voice, mic, effects (reverb, EQ,..) and the amp and speaker. Even a nylon string classical guitar is mic'd if it is on CD. And it's typically mic'd in a way that is not the same as you'd hear it. The engineer will place one mic near the sound hole and typically another a foot or two back and mix them
Even jazz recording from the 50's done with analog tape. The recording engineer used multiple mics and mixed them, thereby creating a sound you could not have heard if you were in the room
And the other sides? The medium-low frequency response will be inevitably more influenced by the room in comparison to smaller enclosures. This is the point where I make my choice: the smallest overall surface (i.e. volume enclosure) that gives me the best compromise between minimal interaction with the room and good response.
Thanks for the reply.
I have always wanted to see the measurements comparing the two since subjectivity is a waste of time to debate.
Great post, you point out another very important fact. Amp headroom!! With pro style drivers there is not need for extreme watts since we are dealing with .4 Watts average listening levels vs 1 Watt. The 1 Watt listening level will clip on peaks if it isnt a 100Watt amp since peaks are 20 to 30 dBs increases for split seconds.
I did the hifi stuff for years and thanks to researchers like Geddes I have found my way to something better. DIY can not be more exciting right now.....Yeah, I should send Geddes Royalties 😀 PM me 😉
Thanks for the response. 🙂
BTW, although the little amp is (maybe) rated 0.7w, the pre amp can drive it slightly into class A2 and squeeze some more power😀 Anyway, I've never heard a single clip, even on explosions in movies or cymbal hammerings in concerts. As said, I'm fully satisfied with them in this regard. 🙂
BTW, although the little amp is (maybe) rated 0.7w, the pre amp can drive it slightly into class A2 and squeeze some more power😀 Anyway, I've never heard a single clip, even on explosions in movies or cymbal hammerings in concerts. As said, I'm fully satisfied with them in this regard. 🙂
I'm just not sure that is the entire story, carried to an extreme in my experience this just results in what sounds like a pair of (perhaps good) speakers playing into a room and being overwhelmed by it as opposed to some much larger speakers that just seem able to disappear - generating a much more convincing sounding performance.
I admit I may have missed your point, but I guess I am just a BIB type of guy with those 11 cu ft Onken enclosures with 16" woofers in my modest sized listening room. (JBL horn mids and tweeters - 300B SE power) Sonically they almost disappear on some material and it is scary - like nothing I have ever heard from a more modestly (sanely) sized system. 😀
Can you get a true holographic event? Can you move around the room without loosing the 3D stage? When moving around do you perceive you are moving around persons playing their instruments? Or like when you listen to a live concert first from a center position and then from the far side?
My speakers in my room behave like a perfect infinite baffle although they are relatively small 3-way reflex bookshelves (my avatar), conventionally.....
Their life-like reproduction is so real and strong (in terms of sonic sensation) that you don't really need massive SPL.
Cheers,
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Very dependent on the program material, but basically yes to all of your questions with the caveat obviously that not all or even most program material is able to produce these sorts of effects. I actually wasn't talking about high spl levels - most of my listening is done at levels well below 90dBspl.
Interestingly I have some fairly creepy material that deliberately places phantom images to the sides (effectively almost beyond the room walls) and behind my listening position. I have freaked out more than a few people with this.. 😉
Most of the good big horn systems I've heard do this better than anything else. Some of them so much so that walking right up to the speaker is not enough to break the illusion. Quite uncanny.
I've heard smaller, more conventional systems with great imaging, but never with the scale and weight of the big boys. There does seem to be some in between size that does not image well. Maybe that is what leads many to think that big systems don't image well. The very big ones do.
I've heard smaller, more conventional systems with great imaging, but never with the scale and weight of the big boys. There does seem to be some in between size that does not image well. Maybe that is what leads many to think that big systems don't image well. The very big ones do.
They do have 12 ft pianos.
Walking around a real piano (or any other instrument) (as well as getting closer to it) changes the sound, even with the lid closed (which it usually isnt). Walking around omni speakers dosnt. This Idea might sorta work if you used 4 or 6 speakers that are each reproducing a different mic placed around the piano but it wont be perfect.
The point is, as soon as you record a sound you change it. Very few people record with flat omni directional mics or blumlien pairs because they understand this. Your reproduced sound is just an illusion of the real thing. Sometimes a very good illusion, but it will never be real and the people that are chasing this "holy grail" will chase there tails forever. If you want real, go to a concert.
Live music is like seeing a play, recorded music is like seeing a movie.
12ft Piano? That's a lot of Piano! Even the big Bösendorfer is "only" 9'6".
Of course there is that crazy Kiwi kid who built an 18'8" piano....
YouTube - TheAlexanderpiano's Channel
Who makes a 12 footer?
Of course there is that crazy Kiwi kid who built an 18'8" piano....
YouTube - TheAlexanderpiano's Channel
Who makes a 12 footer?
pro drivers more easily lend themselves to use in active systems than passive.
this is because if you have a 90db tweeter you probably don't want to pad down a 96db woofer to match it.
but i would certainly rather take an active system using efficient pro drivers than a passive one using inefficient hi-fi drivers.
that said some hi-fi drivers ( like the 92db underhung Accuton midrange ) are quite nice and don't have any prosound analogues.
my dream system would most likely use FIR crossovers and a mix of both prosound and hi-fi drivers.
this is because if you have a 90db tweeter you probably don't want to pad down a 96db woofer to match it.
but i would certainly rather take an active system using efficient pro drivers than a passive one using inefficient hi-fi drivers.
that said some hi-fi drivers ( like the 92db underhung Accuton midrange ) are quite nice and don't have any prosound analogues.
my dream system would most likely use FIR crossovers and a mix of both prosound and hi-fi drivers.
Of course it will never be real but at least one can try to make it sound realistic.
Except that it is the other way arround - you have to pad down the 106 dB compression driver to match the 96 dB woofer - at least at the low end in a CD system, the high end is usually at about the right level. This makes a passive design quite reasonable. In fact in a great many tests of active versus passive crossover implimentations we found that there really wasn't an audible difference. Quite a big cost difference however.
Yep, that's the cool thing with compression drivers /horns. There is almost always enough efficiency in the low end to trade away for proper tonal balance. Works like a charm.
I haven't done the rigorous tests that Earl has, but have found passive to work as well, if not better than active in many cases. It's a great choice.
I haven't done the rigorous tests that Earl has, but have found passive to work as well, if not better than active in many cases. It's a great choice.
Very rare but out there. ( the 9' 6" Bösendorfer would have made my point.)
YouTube - R-371: 12 foot 2 inch Rubenstein Piano - Messiaen
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