Hi, guys. I am new to this forum - this is my first post. And I am new to the DIY audio scene, but I am already learning a ton. I hope this post is not too long. And I hope to get your feedback.
I am looking to build a high-end DIY floorstander. I've scoured the interwebs and forums, including this one, looking for something that'll pique my interest. I've looked at the major players like Selah, Meniscus, and many others. I've come across a lot of examples on this forum, but nothing that exactly strikes me. Yes, I did use the search function and read through a lot of posts.
I am a physicist and biomedical engineer by training, but I do not have experience designing speakers. And to get to a level of skill necessary to design something that I would like both aesthetically and aurally, would take a considerable amount of time. So for now I think I am best off building an existing design, if possible.
And therein lies my conundrum. So many DIY plans are basic rectangular boxes. Nothing wrong with that to be sure, but I would like something a little more...complex and elegant, with curves and flowing lines (I am drawn to certain Sonus Faber designs, for example, but not as avante garde as the B&W Nautilus). I am an experienced woodworker with a well equipped woodworking and machine shop, and a large inventory of exotic woods and veneers. I am looking for a building challenge. I am also quite good with a soldering station, so building the crossover is no problem.
So to the specifics:
floor standing (nothing on stands)
probably passive crossovers, but I am possibly open to active
mostly for 2 channel music, but occasionally a movie or two
I listen to a lot of classical, movie scores, and classic rock
my room volume is large (ceiling vaulted to 14 ft (4.26m), but irregular in shape and open to the kitchen on one end and large-ish foyer to the side
I'd prefer not to have to pull them 6 feet into the room (3 feet is ok), so open baffles are probably not the best option
no particular price limit, but if I could stay under $4000 for everything except the boxes that would be great
would like it to be sonically as good as it can be (I realize this is vague, but I'm really trying to max out the performance as best I can)
should be pleasing to look at, form-wise (I can use exotic veneers and automotive clear coat to achieve a fine finish, but don't just want to put fancy wood on a square box)
My motivation is two-fold:
1. To build the best sounding speaker possible for my money
2. To challenge myself with building a unique and functional work of art
Note that saving money is not my goal. I really enjoy woodworking and audio, and this is a great way to marry the two together.
Are there any great designs out there that you can recommend? I am sure there is a ton of stuff out there I haven't seen. Or should I consider hiring out the design phase?
I am looking to build a high-end DIY floorstander. I've scoured the interwebs and forums, including this one, looking for something that'll pique my interest. I've looked at the major players like Selah, Meniscus, and many others. I've come across a lot of examples on this forum, but nothing that exactly strikes me. Yes, I did use the search function and read through a lot of posts.
I am a physicist and biomedical engineer by training, but I do not have experience designing speakers. And to get to a level of skill necessary to design something that I would like both aesthetically and aurally, would take a considerable amount of time. So for now I think I am best off building an existing design, if possible.
And therein lies my conundrum. So many DIY plans are basic rectangular boxes. Nothing wrong with that to be sure, but I would like something a little more...complex and elegant, with curves and flowing lines (I am drawn to certain Sonus Faber designs, for example, but not as avante garde as the B&W Nautilus). I am an experienced woodworker with a well equipped woodworking and machine shop, and a large inventory of exotic woods and veneers. I am looking for a building challenge. I am also quite good with a soldering station, so building the crossover is no problem.
So to the specifics:
floor standing (nothing on stands)
probably passive crossovers, but I am possibly open to active
mostly for 2 channel music, but occasionally a movie or two
I listen to a lot of classical, movie scores, and classic rock
my room volume is large (ceiling vaulted to 14 ft (4.26m), but irregular in shape and open to the kitchen on one end and large-ish foyer to the side
I'd prefer not to have to pull them 6 feet into the room (3 feet is ok), so open baffles are probably not the best option
no particular price limit, but if I could stay under $4000 for everything except the boxes that would be great
would like it to be sonically as good as it can be (I realize this is vague, but I'm really trying to max out the performance as best I can)
should be pleasing to look at, form-wise (I can use exotic veneers and automotive clear coat to achieve a fine finish, but don't just want to put fancy wood on a square box)
My motivation is two-fold:
1. To build the best sounding speaker possible for my money
2. To challenge myself with building a unique and functional work of art
Note that saving money is not my goal. I really enjoy woodworking and audio, and this is a great way to marry the two together.
Are there any great designs out there that you can recommend? I am sure there is a ton of stuff out there I haven't seen. Or should I consider hiring out the design phase?
adamtdickson,
Welcome!
I am sure you will be flooded with lot of suggestions soon. 🙂
Fully understand your sentiment in trying to build something that is functional (you can enjoy music with it) and yet distinctive from an aesthetic point of view.
Lot of the projects you will find here (or even for commercial speakers) are rectangular boxes, as the build process is relatively simpler and it works. 🙂
I myself like the "boat hull" shape of Sonus Faber speakers and did attempt to do one. Lot of work versus the good old rectangular box... but many have done it successfully. It is possible to take a rectangular box and transform it into something more visually appealing as long as you maintain certain aspects of the design (baffle width, driver to driver distance, cabinet volume, line length, cross-section area, port length to name a few).
Good luck and wish you all the best with your project!
Welcome!
I am sure you will be flooded with lot of suggestions soon. 🙂
Fully understand your sentiment in trying to build something that is functional (you can enjoy music with it) and yet distinctive from an aesthetic point of view.
Lot of the projects you will find here (or even for commercial speakers) are rectangular boxes, as the build process is relatively simpler and it works. 🙂
I myself like the "boat hull" shape of Sonus Faber speakers and did attempt to do one. Lot of work versus the good old rectangular box... but many have done it successfully. It is possible to take a rectangular box and transform it into something more visually appealing as long as you maintain certain aspects of the design (baffle width, driver to driver distance, cabinet volume, line length, cross-section area, port length to name a few).
Good luck and wish you all the best with your project!
-yes, you could do a "boat hull" Elsinore (passive, though it is best with a small 6-10 inch high open-frame stand).
Elsinore Speakers DIY
..maybe spend a LOT more and do the Ardent D (passive):
Ardent D (aka Kurosawa Jr) Winter Camp
..perhaps the LX521.4 (digital active).
LX521.4 Reference loudspeaker
Elsinore Speakers DIY
..maybe spend a LOT more and do the Ardent D (passive):
Ardent D (aka Kurosawa Jr) Winter Camp
..perhaps the LX521.4 (digital active).
LX521.4 Reference loudspeaker
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There are many design threads for poor mans m2...if building a floor stander I suggest placing tweeter at ear level... I wouldn’t get a kit if you are a woodworker in particular...
Designs can be like recipes, you look at them and copy them...
15” - 21” bass woofer 15-12” mid and a 1.4” exit compression driver + horn
Active crossovers (you said you wanted sound quality lol)
You are in there....
If aiming for a 2 way...15” plus horn tweeter is status quo for SQ
Given your back ground I’d employ you to study transmission line to scratch your technical challenge itch. It will also increase your perception of loudspeaker design as a whole.
Designs can be like recipes, you look at them and copy them...
15” - 21” bass woofer 15-12” mid and a 1.4” exit compression driver + horn
Active crossovers (you said you wanted sound quality lol)
You are in there....
If aiming for a 2 way...15” plus horn tweeter is status quo for SQ
Given your back ground I’d employ you to study transmission line to scratch your technical challenge itch. It will also increase your perception of loudspeaker design as a whole.
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Would the Ardent Ds be that far above my self-imposed $4k budget?
I will definitely continue to do my homework. I am just starting out on this journey.
I'm not a big fan of the LX521.4 from a visual perspective. I've never heard one, of course. And about a year ago I was actually strongly considering building a pair, but the amplification needs were sort of off-putting.
I certainly understand that folks who've been at this game for a long time don't necessary work for free, and I am willing to pay for an experienced designer to help bring a new design to fruition.
I haven't really looked into active cross overs much, but I'll put it on my to-do list to learn more about them and the benefits they provide.
I am sort of at the stage where I don't know what I don't know. So I am probably making a lot of assumptions without knowing it, and am not yet likely to be able to even ask intelligent questions. But I am learning.
I will definitely continue to do my homework. I am just starting out on this journey.
I'm not a big fan of the LX521.4 from a visual perspective. I've never heard one, of course. And about a year ago I was actually strongly considering building a pair, but the amplification needs were sort of off-putting.
I certainly understand that folks who've been at this game for a long time don't necessary work for free, and I am willing to pay for an experienced designer to help bring a new design to fruition.
I haven't really looked into active cross overs much, but I'll put it on my to-do list to learn more about them and the benefits they provide.
I am sort of at the stage where I don't know what I don't know. So I am probably making a lot of assumptions without knowing it, and am not yet likely to be able to even ask intelligent questions. But I am learning.
I personally prefer big drivers, over lots of smaller ones. They seem to produce sound in a different way - bigger I suppose.
In a big room with the speakers well away from side walls, you may be better off with a multi-driver speaker rather than say a 15" 2-way. A multi-driver speaker will produce more sound off-axis, so you're not forced to sit in the sweet spot for the best sound.
For a large room, a 15" bass driver, 8" mid and robust 1" tweeter or compression driver would be ideal.
Have a look at some of Troels Graveson or Tony Gee's larger designs.
In a big room with the speakers well away from side walls, you may be better off with a multi-driver speaker rather than say a 15" 2-way. A multi-driver speaker will produce more sound off-axis, so you're not forced to sit in the sweet spot for the best sound.
For a large room, a 15" bass driver, 8" mid and robust 1" tweeter or compression driver would be ideal.
Have a look at some of Troels Graveson or Tony Gee's larger designs.
If you have an optic at videos of the "Midwest Audio Fest" on YouTube you'll find several projects with unusual and interesting cabinets. Some shaped like motorcycle engines, others like an "x" and other cool ideas.
Paul Carmody's three way "Tarkus" has been built in some interesting, curved designs (scroll to bottom of link)Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages - Tarkus
Curt Campbell's three way "Exclamations" look really cool, with a spherical top and triangular bottom Exclamations
Hope this gives you some ideas of what can be done 'outside the box'.
Geoff
Paul Carmody's three way "Tarkus" has been built in some interesting, curved designs (scroll to bottom of link)Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages - Tarkus
Curt Campbell's three way "Exclamations" look really cool, with a spherical top and triangular bottom Exclamations
Hope this gives you some ideas of what can be done 'outside the box'.
Geoff
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Around $600 for each of those midbass drivers. They are unfortunately essential because of the way they move the acoustic center of the drivers forward to work well with the filter/crossover. (..and like the Elisinore: it's a very special (passive) crossover - and it's something you'll rarely find.)
So a little over $3500 for the midbass drivers alone.. UNLESS you can get a discount on that purchase. 😱
The other drivers (2 tweeters and 2 mid's) don't add-on a lot more, but it will still likely push you over your $4k limit, and that's not including the crossover parts (which with a premium build like this) can easily push the cost beyond $5k.
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too bad they don't make an Ardent with newest Wavecores and the cheaper little SB acoustic CAC fo the mid.
Just about the look : Great Balls of Prestige
Have a look for something different with Juhazi member semi open design if you can live with modern look.
There are so much options... one to consider is indeed an easy load like the Elsinore for the amp as it's a sum.
What is doing HifiJim with textreme drivers from SB could be made with spheric ikea balls maybe for a better looking : it's active with the bass near the wall and two little satellites ... that you can make with angles like the bigger Ardent...
Just about the look : Great Balls of Prestige
Have a look for something different with Juhazi member semi open design if you can live with modern look.
There are so much options... one to consider is indeed an easy load like the Elsinore for the amp as it's a sum.
What is doing HifiJim with textreme drivers from SB could be made with spheric ikea balls maybe for a better looking : it's active with the bass near the wall and two little satellites ... that you can make with angles like the bigger Ardent...
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If the front baffle shape of the satellite was not changed, the DSP filter would not need to be changed, except for driver gain settings and delay (which is easy to calculate). The satellite box could be made less rectalinear. Any manner of woofer cabinet shapes could be utilized, and the satellite could be mounted on top of the cabinet... Wilson or KEF 105 style.
I have thought about what it would take to re-engineer my system into a single cabinet, or a "stacked" cabinet... I like the truncated pyramid shape. The active filters would need to be modified to account for the change in baffle shape... I am certain it would be done.
j.
I have thought about what it would take to re-engineer my system into a single cabinet, or a "stacked" cabinet... I like the truncated pyramid shape. The active filters would need to be modified to account for the change in baffle shape... I am certain it would be done.
j.
Attachments
I am almost done with my speakers that are sim to what your goals are. (Less than 4000$ in parts 15”, 12”, 4”, 1” modular towers loosely based on the grand utopias) What was going to be a four year project is turning into 5. If I were to do it again I would avoid lacquer and spend more time with the drivers in test boxes to be dead sure on volume, ports, drivers and so on...unless you go with a proven design. Best to make all the tough decisions when your not on the final enclosure.
Having them 95% done now I can say spending all that extra work on aesthetics was worth it for me. As you said it’s creating art. Fun! Go for it.
Having them 95% done now I can say spending all that extra work on aesthetics was worth it for me. As you said it’s creating art. Fun! Go for it.
You guys are giving me lots to consider. I'm definitely looking more into the Ardent. I've heard it is not the most efficient speaker, but I don't know if that really matters with modern chip amps (I would be powering it with my Denon 3600 for now until I can build a dedicated amp in the future). The mids are specified as the Accuton C90-9-079. I don't see that exact model available. Are they only NOS now, or is that 9 a typo? I see the C90-6-079 is available.
Also looking through some of the kits on Meniscus like the Enthraals and Bordeauxs. They are more 'boxy' than I was hoping for, but if their performance is good, they might be worth a consideration. Might also be some interesting kits on the site of that 'place in Wisconsin'. 😉
Any recommendations with any of those?
And of course Troels Gravesen has a ton on his website, but there's a lot to go through and he specifically doesn't describe how they sound. Any pointers there would also be appreciated.
Also looking through some of the kits on Meniscus like the Enthraals and Bordeauxs. They are more 'boxy' than I was hoping for, but if their performance is good, they might be worth a consideration. Might also be some interesting kits on the site of that 'place in Wisconsin'. 😉
Any recommendations with any of those?
And of course Troels Gravesen has a ton on his website, but there's a lot to go through and he specifically doesn't describe how they sound. Any pointers there would also be appreciated.
I get the impression Troels designs have been evolving and improving over the years, so look in the updates section to see his latest designs.
I know a lot of people would argue more efficient speakers generally sound more lively and engaging.
I know a lot of people would argue more efficient speakers generally sound more lively and engaging.
Morel EM 1308 2-1/8" Dome Midrange
As to the other designs, none have the sort of crossover that the Ardent D has.
Still, it's not a super easy load like the Elsinore's.. but that really doesn't matter with most solid-state amplification.
The Ardent D do a have an attractive aesthetic. 🙂 Need to go through the whole thread to understand more about the design philosophy and cross-over.
The build is mostly a superb job by the speaker-builder, but I was a bit disappointed to see that the inner sides of the woofer mounting holes were like small tunnels and there was no chamfering done to allow the drivers to "breath". There is a possibility of sound reflecting back on to the cone.
Btw, it would not be impossible to do a boat hull style cabinet ala Sonus Faber for the Elsinores (ScottG has already mentioned this) and also make a couple of tweaks to the box's overall look.
The build is mostly a superb job by the speaker-builder, but I was a bit disappointed to see that the inner sides of the woofer mounting holes were like small tunnels and there was no chamfering done to allow the drivers to "breath". There is a possibility of sound reflecting back on to the cone.
Btw, it would not be impossible to do a boat hull style cabinet ala Sonus Faber for the Elsinores (ScottG has already mentioned this) and also make a couple of tweaks to the box's overall look.
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.... Funny, I was asking the same about the back -wave of this design because of the front baffle thick layers stack to make the complex outside angles (imho here most of the diyers would not have the hand skill level to make such shapes on a table saw...)
I don't know if they planned a much more cheaper Ardent with some of the drivers they like : Peereless DA25TX for the high, the Dayton Audio dome for the mid and others Wavecores for the bass register. Seems there is also not only the very expensive ceramic flat cones for the bass. I don't remember which but there is a brand that make flat bass cones a little like Acuton does, and certainly with enough bandwidth for the Duelend passive filter type...
But maybe the fact some of the designs here and there are made for kits could be a wish to include some good expensive drivers to pay back the designers when sold by drivers shops... which seems fair as you can not have all for free...
For the Sonus Faber shapes, a technic, certainly expensive is to make a jig to stack curved sandwich made with CNC... which also permits non symetric interior shape to break the stand-waves and avoid a standalone frequency big resonance.
I don't know if they planned a much more cheaper Ardent with some of the drivers they like : Peereless DA25TX for the high, the Dayton Audio dome for the mid and others Wavecores for the bass register. Seems there is also not only the very expensive ceramic flat cones for the bass. I don't remember which but there is a brand that make flat bass cones a little like Acuton does, and certainly with enough bandwidth for the Duelend passive filter type...
But maybe the fact some of the designs here and there are made for kits could be a wish to include some good expensive drivers to pay back the designers when sold by drivers shops... which seems fair as you can not have all for free...
For the Sonus Faber shapes, a technic, certainly expensive is to make a jig to stack curved sandwich made with CNC... which also permits non symetric interior shape to break the stand-waves and avoid a standalone frequency big resonance.
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Ooops! 😱
I added on another set of midbass drivers to this total. 😱
-so subtract about $1200.
Also, I didn't include the passive radiators. So you need to add-on those to the total. 😱
diyiggy,
Been going through the whole thread, and glad to see that the builder did chamfer the insides of the woofer mounting holes:
Ardent D (aka Kurosawa Jr) Winter Camp - Page 6
Quite a relief 😀, and given his skill sets in the design and execution, I was scratching my head on how that was overlooked - well, it was not.
Been going through the whole thread, and glad to see that the builder did chamfer the insides of the woofer mounting holes:
Ardent D (aka Kurosawa Jr) Winter Camp - Page 6
Quite a relief 😀, and given his skill sets in the design and execution, I was scratching my head on how that was overlooked - well, it was not.
Well that's embarrassing. I was looking at the Ardent, not the Ardent D. I'm all straightened out now. I like the design of the Ardent D quite a bit. I wonder if I should reach out to Steve and Jon about building a pair...
If I was going to build a proven high end passive crossover kit, I would strongly consider the Troels Gravesen Illuminator-4. One thing I really like about TG kits is that he has a lot of photos of the project in various stages of construction.
I would avoid a kit where all you are shown is CAD drawings... you may be the first to actually assemble it... that's not even beta testing, that is alpha testing... not a good place to be... If I am going to alpha test a kit, it will be MY kit.
I would avoid a kit where all you are shown is CAD drawings... you may be the first to actually assemble it... that's not even beta testing, that is alpha testing... not a good place to be... If I am going to alpha test a kit, it will be MY kit.