Pre-amp not balance when measures with a DMM
When listening to female vocals, the singer is in the middle of both speakers, but when I measured the output from the pre-amp using a 400hz tone, I am getting not equal measurements
Volume Left channel Right channel
9 13mv 10mv
11 49mv 35mv
12 90mv 67mv
1 146mv 136mv
2 154mv 152mv
3 157mv 156mv
should I be concerned or should I just enjoy the music ?
When listening to female vocals, the singer is in the middle of both speakers, but when I measured the output from the pre-amp using a 400hz tone, I am getting not equal measurements
Volume Left channel Right channel
9 13mv 10mv
11 49mv 35mv
12 90mv 67mv
1 146mv 136mv
2 154mv 152mv
3 157mv 156mv
should I be concerned or should I just enjoy the music ?
Hi,
What is the meaning of the numbers in the first column ?
Do you measure "0" when shutting down the tone generator ?
What is the meaning of the numbers in the first column ?
Do you measure "0" when shutting down the tone generator ?
It appears this is volume control mistracking, due to manufacturing tolerances.
A 10% mismatch is about 1dB, so you have significant tracking error below 1 o'clock
on the control. If your typical listening volume setting is below 1 o'clock, you could
consider getting the volume control replaced with a better one, but if the acoustic
centering from the speakers seems ok to you, there is no need.
I guess the preamplifier have a potentiometer as volume control?
All standard potentiometers have very bad channel balance especially at low volume settings, the famous blue ALPS RK27 can have as much as 3dB unbalance down to an attenuation of 60dB and up to 5dB at very low settings, these are values from ALPS data sheet.
Other potentiometers are not much better, the best I have seen is a TKD that promise 1dB unbalance but even that is possible to hear. To make matters worse it is not uncommon that a potentiometer change balance from one side to the other when changing volume setting.
The obvious solution is to use a stepped attenuator, either with a rotary switch or with relays. With 1% resistors maximum unbalance is about 0.2dB and if resistors are measured and selected much better, (resistors from same batch usually have an unit to unit tolerance that is much lower than the maximum allowed).
All standard potentiometers have very bad channel balance especially at low volume settings, the famous blue ALPS RK27 can have as much as 3dB unbalance down to an attenuation of 60dB and up to 5dB at very low settings, these are values from ALPS data sheet.
Other potentiometers are not much better, the best I have seen is a TKD that promise 1dB unbalance but even that is possible to hear. To make matters worse it is not uncommon that a potentiometer change balance from one side to the other when changing volume setting.
The obvious solution is to use a stepped attenuator, either with a rotary switch or with relays. With 1% resistors maximum unbalance is about 0.2dB and if resistors are measured and selected much better, (resistors from same batch usually have an unit to unit tolerance that is much lower than the maximum allowed).
FWIW the best balance I've had on a pot was with a cheap "Alpha" pot. Much better balance than Bournes from Digi-key even, and they were cheaper.
100K OHM Logarithmic Dual Rotary Taper Potentiometer A100K 100KA POT ALPHA | eBay
100K OHM Logarithmic Dual Rotary Taper Potentiometer A100K 100KA POT ALPHA | eBay
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I would just enjoy the music unless you want to open the Pandora box. But then Pandora box are fun.
I guess its “the reason” why a surprisingly high number of audiophiles glom onto rotary-switch based attenuators. 2 pole, 15+ 'position' is essentially acoustically perfect when matched with 2% or better resistors.
Oh, one can also 'hand pick' matching resistors too … with a conventional DVM, a pair of cloth gloves (get rid of one's skin resistance) and some patience with a pile of resistors. Not hard … I do it all the time. And we then have the caché of saying the thing was built out of hand-matched components.
They are nice. The usual problem is that they don't often 'fit' in the allowed space of one's existing preamp cabinet. Sometimes the magic works, and sometimes it doesn't.
Just Saying,
GoatGuy ✓
Oh, one can also 'hand pick' matching resistors too … with a conventional DVM, a pair of cloth gloves (get rid of one's skin resistance) and some patience with a pile of resistors. Not hard … I do it all the time. And we then have the caché of saying the thing was built out of hand-matched components.
They are nice. The usual problem is that they don't often 'fit' in the allowed space of one's existing preamp cabinet. Sometimes the magic works, and sometimes it doesn't.
Just Saying,
GoatGuy ✓
Or if you're lazy like me, you use one of these:
Advanced relay volume control board / HIFI volume board / relay volume board | eBay
Advanced relay volume control board / HIFI volume board / relay volume board | eBay
These are very good, inexpensive, and track well.
DACT Type 21 Stepped Attenuator / Volume Control (Hi Fi Grade) * D shape Shaft * | eBay
DACT Type 21 Stepped Attenuator / Volume Control (Hi Fi Grade) * D shape Shaft * | eBay
>Volume Left channel Right channel
> 9 13mv 10mv
> 11 49mv 35mv
> 12 90mv 67mv
> 1 146mv 136mv
> 2 154mv 152mv
> 3 157mv 156mv
"Clock numbers" for knob position, 12-hour clock. "12" at top.
Make sure your L and R speakers are matched better than 1 dB.
Make sure your L and R speakers are placed such that the reflections of the room boundaries, and furniture, and wall hangings, etc. are all balanced.
Or . . . just enjoy the music.
Do you always have to pick a center seat in the orchestra hall, or at the Jazz gig?
And what instrument sound is that big 350 pound football star in front of you blocking, the Saxophone?
Make sure your L and R speakers are placed such that the reflections of the room boundaries, and furniture, and wall hangings, etc. are all balanced.
Or . . . just enjoy the music.
Do you always have to pick a center seat in the orchestra hall, or at the Jazz gig?
And what instrument sound is that big 350 pound football star in front of you blocking, the Saxophone?
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Most listeners are obsessed with soundstage and musical imaging but not all. I can perfectly enjoy a single channel but sometimes recordings sound dead in mono. Intuition would say it has to do with dynamics, being potentionally halve with just 1 channel playing.
Or, there might be sometimes phase cancellation with monaural reproduction on heavily produced tracks.
Pot is ok, imbalance is happening after the pot. I am not looking to fixing or determining the caused of the imbalance right now, I am concerned if those difference in volts (mV) really matter.
"Pot is ok, imbalance is happening after the pot. "
That would have been very useful information to put in your original post!
How do you know the imbalance is after the pot? You have already asserted: "when I measured the output from the pre-amp." Where else have you measured and what's the schematic?
That would have been very useful information to put in your original post!
How do you know the imbalance is after the pot? You have already asserted: "when I measured the output from the pre-amp." Where else have you measured and what's the schematic?
If you read my original post, the ONLY ask was if I should be concerned about the difference in measurement. There was no ask to identify or fix the cause of the problem. I think most of us are hard wired to offer solutions once they read a problem in a post, in this case is the problem really a problem 🙂
To answer your question below, I measured the output after the pot, just before it goes in the pre-amp circuit, results is balance. I measured the outputs of the pre-amp circuit and the left channel is weak. Like I said, I am not looking to fix the issue right now, I am wondering if those minute difference in voltage really matter....
To answer your question below, I measured the output after the pot, just before it goes in the pre-amp circuit, results is balance. I measured the outputs of the pre-amp circuit and the left channel is weak. Like I said, I am not looking to fix the issue right now, I am wondering if those minute difference in voltage really matter....
If the balance varies with the position of the volume control, that must be the source
of the imbalance. (A few unusual circuits excepted.)
of the imbalance. (A few unusual circuits excepted.)
qgyy2000,
Yes, I was too unkind and too critical with my dismissal of the problem of channel balance.
I have to apologize for that.
And yes, many stereo recordings will have some cancellations of some signals when you just do a simple Mono combine of the signal (L+R).
But if there are such electrical cancellations in the L+R of the recording, then when you have perfectly balanced signals, amps, and loudspeakers, those L and R signals will also cancel acoustically.
And then there are pan pots, phase reversers, and other trick tools in recording and production techniques.
Not all is perfect.
I used to be very careful about signal balance.
I would monitor the L and R channels on an oscilloscope XY display.
You can learn a lot about what different recording techniques are like (results).
I found out about that when I listened to the music and compared it to the XY display.
Many recordings have mono-like equal amplitude and equal phase of L and R signals,
much more than you might expect. If you have an XY scope, you can see the upward 45 degree slope line (and with very little width to that line).
Then you put on another recording, and the XY display 'blooms' with many signals appearing everywhere within what looks more like a scribbled filled-in circle. You can easily find some classical recordings like this, but other recordings like some Jazz ones.
Our 2 ears and our brain have very powerful analysis capability.
. . . But then I lost the use of one ear.
Now, with just one ear, I found out that when you walk across a line that is perpendicular to the line from speaker to speaker, you hear lots of cancellations, like a variable comb filter as you walk the line.
Now, with one ear, I often just use a mono-block tube amp, and a 2-way loudspeaker.
I only apply either just the L signal from the CD player to the amp, or just the R signal to the amp.
There are no L R cancellations when I only use L 'or' R, versus combining L+R.
I plan on building a switch and matrix to take the CD L and R outputs, and give the following:
Left only; Left and -6dB of R; Left and - 3dB of R; L+R; R and -3dB of L; R and -6dB of L;
and R only.
That way, I can hear both the L and R channels on a mono-block amp and single 2-way loudspeaker, but without the cancellation of a simple L+R mono mix that is a problem of some recordings.
Yes, I was too unkind and too critical with my dismissal of the problem of channel balance.
I have to apologize for that.
And yes, many stereo recordings will have some cancellations of some signals when you just do a simple Mono combine of the signal (L+R).
But if there are such electrical cancellations in the L+R of the recording, then when you have perfectly balanced signals, amps, and loudspeakers, those L and R signals will also cancel acoustically.
And then there are pan pots, phase reversers, and other trick tools in recording and production techniques.
Not all is perfect.
I used to be very careful about signal balance.
I would monitor the L and R channels on an oscilloscope XY display.
You can learn a lot about what different recording techniques are like (results).
I found out about that when I listened to the music and compared it to the XY display.
Many recordings have mono-like equal amplitude and equal phase of L and R signals,
much more than you might expect. If you have an XY scope, you can see the upward 45 degree slope line (and with very little width to that line).
Then you put on another recording, and the XY display 'blooms' with many signals appearing everywhere within what looks more like a scribbled filled-in circle. You can easily find some classical recordings like this, but other recordings like some Jazz ones.
Our 2 ears and our brain have very powerful analysis capability.
. . . But then I lost the use of one ear.
Now, with just one ear, I found out that when you walk across a line that is perpendicular to the line from speaker to speaker, you hear lots of cancellations, like a variable comb filter as you walk the line.
Now, with one ear, I often just use a mono-block tube amp, and a 2-way loudspeaker.
I only apply either just the L signal from the CD player to the amp, or just the R signal to the amp.
There are no L R cancellations when I only use L 'or' R, versus combining L+R.
I plan on building a switch and matrix to take the CD L and R outputs, and give the following:
Left only; Left and -6dB of R; Left and - 3dB of R; L+R; R and -3dB of L; R and -6dB of L;
and R only.
That way, I can hear both the L and R channels on a mono-block amp and single 2-way loudspeaker, but without the cancellation of a simple L+R mono mix that is a problem of some recordings.
The auditory image is to a large extend determined by the listening room. It is often that the best center image is reached with slight imbalance in signal.
I would just enjoy the music.
Jan