I still haven't decided. Thylantyr's voting for the NeoPro5. I did notice that they weren't pure Al. Maybe the new AC 3 or 3si? What's the si mean?
...sincerest form of flattery. Wasn't on purpose, at least not yet. I made a big rectangle and the girlfriend said, "uh uh." I then beveled the top to slim it. More head shaking. I then cut three inches off the bottom. Still not happy.
Aesthetically, she likes the woofers close together. Fine. I think I could get away with the 15 if it was pure open baffle with very shallow wings. But the TD series woofers don't seem to ever exceed a Qts of .4.
It's really nice of everyone to dig up specs and crunch numbers but I don't want to rely too heavily on that and wear you out.
I need to start plugging numbers into worksheets and read up more on U frames and other dipole arrangements. And to do that I need to free up some time.
Last night my gf dragged me to a Terroir class, I've got band practice tonight, I have to finish painting the bathroom for the third time, social engagement Saturday night, and my band goes into the studio to record our first EP on Sunday.
Where I'm at right now is thinking that I'll grab a pair of those Daytons and stick them in a ported box just to get me started on something. If I crossover around 250Hz, I theorize my woofer choice is somewhat less critical.
...sincerest form of flattery. Wasn't on purpose, at least not yet. I made a big rectangle and the girlfriend said, "uh uh." I then beveled the top to slim it. More head shaking. I then cut three inches off the bottom. Still not happy.
Aesthetically, she likes the woofers close together. Fine. I think I could get away with the 15 if it was pure open baffle with very shallow wings. But the TD series woofers don't seem to ever exceed a Qts of .4.
It's really nice of everyone to dig up specs and crunch numbers but I don't want to rely too heavily on that and wear you out.
I need to start plugging numbers into worksheets and read up more on U frames and other dipole arrangements. And to do that I need to free up some time.
Last night my gf dragged me to a Terroir class, I've got band practice tonight, I have to finish painting the bathroom for the third time, social engagement Saturday night, and my band goes into the studio to record our first EP on Sunday.
Where I'm at right now is thinking that I'll grab a pair of those Daytons and stick them in a ported box just to get me started on something. If I crossover around 250Hz, I theorize my woofer choice is somewhat less critical.
ultrachrome said:
That concept is similar to the Magico speaker 😎
The TD12 is good, even John told me years ago he built
a guitar cabinet for someone and they though the bass
was amazing (as you know, guitar speakers lack bass),
but I just don't know how picky you are for high output bass.
Either way, the 12" should do great in comparison to a smaller
woofer like an 8". I'm just fond of the bigger woofer.
Do you plan to have a seperate subwoofer ? If so, then there
is no big issue. You can seal the TD12 to make the box
smaller. If no subwoofer, then port the TD12 in a bigger box.
Whatever you chose, the Faraday motor Lambda will easy
beat anything found at Partspexpress as far as
sound quality is concerned //
\\Check this out, someone on the car audio forum built a
tower based on the same principle design. He loves it.
http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=191130
{if server busy, keep trying}
2 x PHL 1240 midrange (6.5")
1 x RAVEN R2 ribon tweeter
1 x Lambda Acoustics TD12X (12")
Shortcut to pics if you don't want to read his comments.
http://members.shaw.ca/lcleven/right_speaker_with_dad.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/lcleven/home_page1.html
This is the cool stuff 😎
tower based on the same principle design. He loves it.
http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=191130
{if server busy, keep trying}
2 x PHL 1240 midrange (6.5")
1 x RAVEN R2 ribon tweeter
1 x Lambda Acoustics TD12X (12")
Shortcut to pics if you don't want to read his comments.
http://members.shaw.ca/lcleven/right_speaker_with_dad.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/lcleven/home_page1.html
This is the cool stuff 😎
Yeah, I've seen that last one. How come those guys look so of grouchy?
Magico. If I had enough disposable income to buy those, I'd buy a big milling machine instead and have a steady of supply of baltic birch and mdf flowing through my garage.
I have a little Velodyne F-1000 that has been serving me well for about 10 years. Someday I might replace it but it still sounds nice to my ears. But I would like something with lower extension than my Ellis 1801s.
Magico. If I had enough disposable income to buy those, I'd buy a big milling machine instead and have a steady of supply of baltic birch and mdf flowing through my garage.
I have a little Velodyne F-1000 that has been serving me well for about 10 years. Someday I might replace it but it still sounds nice to my ears. But I would like something with lower extension than my Ellis 1801s.
Re: Re: PR170M0 Appreciation Club: new member questions
This is the Audax PR17OMO we're talking about, no? with an Xmax of .5mm? Lower than 250, or less steep.... the issues are self-evident. I
use an active 4th order XO (marchand 12ax7 based unit) at 250 and am quite pleased with the results. 2 of the audax are paralleled on a goodsized OB, with an eminence APT80 supertweet, passive first ordered at 5k. The bass is handled by nonsense (ported vifa 7"s ugh) but that's what I had.
This is the Audax PR17OMO we're talking about, no? with an Xmax of .5mm? Lower than 250, or less steep.... the issues are self-evident. I
use an active 4th order XO (marchand 12ax7 based unit) at 250 and am quite pleased with the results. 2 of the audax are paralleled on a goodsized OB, with an eminence APT80 supertweet, passive first ordered at 5k. The bass is handled by nonsense (ported vifa 7"s ugh) but that's what I had.
At this point it's kind of splitting hairs. I plan to pick a XO point between 250 and 500. I have 12-24dB/octave active crossover to use so I will start with that.
I'm just trying to ensure the woofer I pick has sufficient bandwidth for greatest design flexibility.
At the moment I'm trying to reconcile two contributions to my project:
- Kuei says pick a woofer with a Qts >.4
- Thylantyr says Go LAMBDA! which happens to have a Qts < .3
It is really hard to find a 10" or larger woofer with high Qts and "marketing" that suggests any sort of wide bandwidth performance.
Am I asking too much to have a high efficiency woofer(s) that also produces output that reaches below 50Hz?
I'm just trying to ensure the woofer I pick has sufficient bandwidth for greatest design flexibility.
At the moment I'm trying to reconcile two contributions to my project:
- Kuei says pick a woofer with a Qts >.4
- Thylantyr says Go LAMBDA! which happens to have a Qts < .3
It is really hard to find a 10" or larger woofer with high Qts and "marketing" that suggests any sort of wide bandwidth performance.
Am I asking too much to have a high efficiency woofer(s) that also produces output that reaches below 50Hz?
Just so you know linkwitz uses the XLS10" from peerless, in his open H baffles. Now these have a Qts of 0.17 but a free air res of 19hz, this may be less of a concern because the free air res is lower then the lambdas. Linkwitz does use heavy eq though.
Im hopeless at remembering peoples names on this place but someone said that drivers behaviour is controlled by the sensativity laws above resonance, by the drivers losses at resonance and then they are compliance controlled below.
This would lead me to believe that if you have a low Qts driver with a free air resonance low enough, its Qts not going to be of any concequence.
Yes although the peerless is going to be maybe 12+dB down at resonance this is already at 19hz so much less of a problem then if it was at 35?
I know both situations require EQ but whats wrong with that.
Im using a single XLS perside in H baffles similar to linkwitz but with provisions for a second driver to be added in push pull. This has plenty of EQ added in the form of a shelving circuit & parametric EQ from the KX drivers. These sound great and go plenty loud enough for me in a 4*3m room.
Im hopeless at remembering peoples names on this place but someone said that drivers behaviour is controlled by the sensativity laws above resonance, by the drivers losses at resonance and then they are compliance controlled below.
This would lead me to believe that if you have a low Qts driver with a free air resonance low enough, its Qts not going to be of any concequence.
Yes although the peerless is going to be maybe 12+dB down at resonance this is already at 19hz so much less of a problem then if it was at 35?
I know both situations require EQ but whats wrong with that.
Im using a single XLS perside in H baffles similar to linkwitz but with provisions for a second driver to be added in push pull. This has plenty of EQ added in the form of a shelving circuit & parametric EQ from the KX drivers. These sound great and go plenty loud enough for me in a 4*3m room.
I'm just trying to ensure the woofer I pick has sufficient bandwidth for greatest design flexibility.
There are many woofers that have plenty bandwidth, the trick is
to find one that sounds good in the lower midrange.
At the moment I'm trying to reconcile two contributions to my project:
- Kuei says pick a woofer with a Qts >.4
- Thylantyr says Go LAMBDA! which happens to have a Qts < .3
Lambda ported or sealed There is no need to mess
around with anything else. Make a woofer test box and try
a ported box, then plug the port with socks to convert to sealed.
Compare the two.
Am I asking too much to have a high efficiency woofer(s) that also produces output that reaches below 50Hz?
Don't go there, it doesn't work. Been there already. Think sound quality first then worry about efficiency. Power amplification is
cheap so there is no need to worry. You can use proamps in
your home with awesome results, people do it all the time.
Entry level proamps from Crown or QSC cost about 25 cents per
watt. ~ $250 for a KILOWATT amp.
Prior to Lambda, I was seeking something similar to what you want.
The only woofers I could find that might meet my SQ requirement
were;
Focal Audiom 15WX- >$800 - $1200 each. // yikes \\
TAD - $775 each.
JBL - ~ $500 each.
PHL - forgot, but not cheap either.
Then the Lambda was recommended to me.
Lambda TD15 faraday motor - $279 each. (was $229 originally)
TD15 vs. 15WX
TD15 xmax - tested closer to 16mm linear one way.
15WX xmax - spec says 6mm
TD15 inductance - 0.3mH
15WX inductance - 2.15mH
(low inductance = wider bandwith)
TD15 power handling - rated 300w, tested 500w
15WX power handling - rated 225w
Do you think the Lambda owns the Focal ?
The Apollo version has two more shorting rings and the
power handling is double, 1000 wrms.
**
TAD - no doubt it's a great woofer but xmax is 1/2 the Lambda
and that woofer cost 2.5x more.
JBL - Xmax is 1/2 the Lambda and this woofer models more like
a midbass driver than woofer. You have to port this woofer
but it won't go low like the Lambda does.
PHL - similar issues as the JBL.
I have a very efficient pro woofer that cost $450 each.
I didn't realize how bad they sound until I hooked up the Lambda
and compared. Play the Lambda full range and it's smooth compared
to my pro woofer.
There are many woofers that have plenty bandwidth, the trick is
to find one that sounds good in the lower midrange.
At the moment I'm trying to reconcile two contributions to my project:
- Kuei says pick a woofer with a Qts >.4
- Thylantyr says Go LAMBDA! which happens to have a Qts < .3
Lambda ported or sealed
There is no need to messaround with anything else. Make a woofer test box and try
a ported box, then plug the port with socks to convert to sealed.
Compare the two.
Am I asking too much to have a high efficiency woofer(s) that also produces output that reaches below 50Hz?
Don't go there, it doesn't work. Been there already. Think sound quality first then worry about efficiency. Power amplification is
cheap so there is no need to worry. You can use proamps in
your home with awesome results, people do it all the time.
Entry level proamps from Crown or QSC cost about 25 cents per
watt. ~ $250 for a KILOWATT amp.
Prior to Lambda, I was seeking something similar to what you want.
The only woofers I could find that might meet my SQ requirement
were;
Focal Audiom 15WX- >$800 - $1200 each. // yikes \\
TAD - $775 each.
JBL - ~ $500 each.
PHL - forgot, but not cheap either.
Then the Lambda was recommended to me.
Lambda TD15 faraday motor - $279 each. (was $229 originally)
TD15 vs. 15WX
TD15 xmax - tested closer to 16mm linear one way.
15WX xmax - spec says 6mm
TD15 inductance - 0.3mH
15WX inductance - 2.15mH
(low inductance = wider bandwith)
TD15 power handling - rated 300w, tested 500w
15WX power handling - rated 225w
Do you think the Lambda owns the Focal ?
The Apollo version has two more shorting rings and the
power handling is double, 1000 wrms.
**
TAD - no doubt it's a great woofer but xmax is 1/2 the Lambda
and that woofer cost 2.5x more.
JBL - Xmax is 1/2 the Lambda and this woofer models more like
a midbass driver than woofer. You have to port this woofer
but it won't go low like the Lambda does.
PHL - similar issues as the JBL.
I have a very efficient pro woofer that cost $450 each.
I didn't realize how bad they sound until I hooked up the Lambda
and compared. Play the Lambda full range and it's smooth compared
to my pro woofer.
Send me an email.... thylantyr at hotmail dot com
I found some info I don't want to post on public forums. 😎
I found some info I don't want to post on public forums. 😎
Anyone thought about using a couple of eminence Beta 15s in an H-frame?
I've just managed to get my second JP2.0/PR170 baffle running without blowing up the ribbon and need to start looking for woofers to go with it 😉 The Beta 15s look like they have a very flat frequency respons all the way up to 2K and the Fs/Qts looks quite nice for a dipole..
--Chris
I've just managed to get my second JP2.0/PR170 baffle running without blowing up the ribbon and need to start looking for woofers to go with it 😉 The Beta 15s look like they have a very flat frequency respons all the way up to 2K and the Fs/Qts looks quite nice for a dipole..
--Chris
For me, I have a width issue with 15". I did play around with the 12" beta but only in WinISD. It looked interesting.
Saurav, how do you like your beta with this combination?
My PR170M0's arrived today. They are some stout looking drivers.
Saurav, how do you like your beta with this combination?
My PR170M0's arrived today. They are some stout looking drivers.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Congratz UltraChrome... You're going to love them...
I just spent the last two hours listening to Diana Krall on my PR170/JP2.0s.. I played a bit with the crossover point and I think I like LR48 at around 2.5-2.7Khz the best..
If you want my advice don't wait for tweets/woofs just play them fullrange to break them in and get a feel for the sound.. They're pretty much amazing from 200-10Khz.
I had mine mounted in an 18x24" baffle, centered horizontally and about 2/3 of the way up vertically. Sounded great, missed a little on the top end but not much, vocals are silky smooth...
FYI, a u-haul medium sized cardboard box makes a perfect 18"x24" baffle 😉.
if you cut in half and fold over such that two of the sides are stacked with a joint on one side. Both flaps extended, tape with packaging tape.. Nice and strong then just cut a hole for the speaker and enjoy.. No crossover needed
--Chris
I just spent the last two hours listening to Diana Krall on my PR170/JP2.0s.. I played a bit with the crossover point and I think I like LR48 at around 2.5-2.7Khz the best..
If you want my advice don't wait for tweets/woofs just play them fullrange to break them in and get a feel for the sound.. They're pretty much amazing from 200-10Khz.
I had mine mounted in an 18x24" baffle, centered horizontally and about 2/3 of the way up vertically. Sounded great, missed a little on the top end but not much, vocals are silky smooth...
FYI, a u-haul medium sized cardboard box makes a perfect 18"x24" baffle 😉.
if you cut in half and fold over such that two of the sides are stacked with a joint on one side. Both flaps extended, tape with packaging tape.. Nice and strong then just cut a hole for the speaker and enjoy.. No crossover needed
--Chris
Re: Re: Re: PR170M0 Appreciation Club: new member questions
Konnichiwa,
Yes.
Yes. Do yourself a favour. Actually check what sort of excursion you REALLY get. Just as a hint, I know people who run the PR170M0 full range in horns with the horn helping out below Fs.... Works surprisingly well and plays quite loud too.
Indeed. You have the choice between high order filters that sound pretty bad but claim advantages and low order filters that sound most excellent and appear non too good on paper.
Try 1st order, just for fun/completeness. You may be surprised.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
badman said:
Yes.
badman said:
Yes. Do yourself a favour. Actually check what sort of excursion you REALLY get. Just as a hint, I know people who run the PR170M0 full range in horns with the horn helping out below Fs.... Works surprisingly well and plays quite loud too.
badman said:
Indeed. You have the choice between high order filters that sound pretty bad but claim advantages and low order filters that sound most excellent and appear non too good on paper.
badman said:
Try 1st order, just for fun/completeness. You may be surprised.
Sayonara
Looks like Lambda woofers ....
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Re: Re: Re: Re: PR170M0 Appreciation Club: new member questions
okay, I'll have marchand send me out a few more boards, and whip up a few lower XO point XOs and lower order ones as well. I'm certainly not opposed to low order crossovers, I was just under the impression that this driver really needed to be babied wrt cone travel. We shall see what I come up with.
Kuei Yang Wang said:
okay, I'll have marchand send me out a few more boards, and whip up a few lower XO point XOs and lower order ones as well. I'm certainly not opposed to low order crossovers, I was just under the impression that this driver really needed to be babied wrt cone travel. We shall see what I come up with.
Hello,
Just wanted to stick my nose in here. I am a Lambda TD12 user. IMHO they are the best 12" woofers I have heard. I have heard Focals, I don't think the SQ is close. IMHO, I don't think you'll be disappointed if you go with the Lambdas (12 or 15).
BTW, I think I need to pick up a couple of these PR170s, everybody just raves about them. I have the TD12s crossed at 500hz to some 5" Vifa Alnicos and they sound pretty darn good.
Just wanted to stick my nose in here. I am a Lambda TD12 user. IMHO they are the best 12" woofers I have heard. I have heard Focals, I don't think the SQ is close. IMHO, I don't think you'll be disappointed if you go with the Lambdas (12 or 15).
BTW, I think I need to pick up a couple of these PR170s, everybody just raves about them. I have the TD12s crossed at 500hz to some 5" Vifa Alnicos and they sound pretty darn good.
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