It's semantics. Sure, coaxials cover the "full range" of frequencies, but sometimes "fullrange" is used more specifically to note a single driver purportedly covering the whole range.
- If you like their sound, buy them, put them in a box, DONE*
- The sound in a box will be very similar to on the sound board at least insofar as basic frequency balance and certainly shrillness. As a loudspeaker engineer I never had time to get into what is harshness/shrillness...distortion I suppose, and surely breakup contributes to that. But in a car-style coax maybe some is blocked by the tweeter in front, and maybe a crossover. Which exact model Pioneer are you listening to?
I am not familiar with those artists, what albums would you suggest? I'm always curious to hear new stuff.
The thing is that your SPL requirements are very vague, so there's a lot of guessing. The M.A. advert for the Alpair 11 shows a bit of cone movement, which may give a visual baseline. And would probably sound quite impressive if my smartphone actually had a headphone jack:
Alpair YT demo
Not affiliated in any way, just extrapolating out from a couple of their drivers that I bought: the Chn-50, Alpair 5 ms, and the CHP-90 in particular. I don't know if any of the M.A.'s have vented pole pieces, so that could be a limiting factor if you want class-leading bass with no hissing under the dustcap.
The bigger the drivers, the more they will tend to beam, so that's a price to pay, especially if you want wide coverage, but IMO dedicated 25-30mm tweeters usually also sound very flawed, to my battered ears anyway.
A woofer assisted wide-range or WAW is a popular thing lately. Basically a big 2-way with a FR driver as a mid tweeter crossing over a bit lower like 500 Hz or so.
Btw. a good primer to get a 'feel' for frequency plots and what they represent could be to run Audacity on a PC, and experiment with generating some 'chirps'. That will directly generate whatever frequency you want so you can hear what it sounds like. You can also select the audio and do something called Fourier analysis (somewhere in the tools menu). You can even record new tracks while playing test tones, to make rudimentary in-room recordings of those frequency sweeps.
Alpair YT demo
Not affiliated in any way, just extrapolating out from a couple of their drivers that I bought: the Chn-50, Alpair 5 ms, and the CHP-90 in particular. I don't know if any of the M.A.'s have vented pole pieces, so that could be a limiting factor if you want class-leading bass with no hissing under the dustcap.
The bigger the drivers, the more they will tend to beam, so that's a price to pay, especially if you want wide coverage, but IMO dedicated 25-30mm tweeters usually also sound very flawed, to my battered ears anyway.
A woofer assisted wide-range or WAW is a popular thing lately. Basically a big 2-way with a FR driver as a mid tweeter crossing over a bit lower like 500 Hz or so.
Btw. a good primer to get a 'feel' for frequency plots and what they represent could be to run Audacity on a PC, and experiment with generating some 'chirps'. That will directly generate whatever frequency you want so you can hear what it sounds like. You can also select the audio and do something called Fourier analysis (somewhere in the tools menu). You can even record new tracks while playing test tones, to make rudimentary in-room recordings of those frequency sweeps.
Pioneers
Pheonix Gold
They are very very close in picking out detail with what's happening around the bassline, especially when Robbie Shakespeare and Daryl Thompson dance around the steps with the bass and muted electric. I did an intensive audition two years ago but only with my car playlist which is all dub. Revisited yesterday to give them a go with the Indian goldies. These two can make one smile, but there must a good reason why car drivers are never picked by serious, prominent DIY'ers
I must mention it's very hard to pick between the two
Happy to make the effort to get this right. It will be an expensive experiment, but I might find other uses. Helping sort out the better ones from the two coaxial will be much appreciated and since I have one set of pioneers already, I am not too opposed to the idea of AB testing them side by side in proper boxes. These don't come with parameters and I also have quite a few no names coming in, so this is the right time to get setup for driver measurements
I'll do a pair of boxes with the better one from above and a split range using the ZXI-354 FR driver and a quality matching woofer so that xover can be kept simple enough for me to work with. I'll look around for a 4R woofer around 5-6.5" inches that can help unload the 3.5" a bit so that driver can be pushed a bit harder with 120wrms@8R shared between the fore and aft faces per box
It's difficult to suggest an album as Indian popular music from that era is pretty much all movie soundtracks and not all songs in a movie make it to 'evergreen'
Most of my personal faves are from a composer by the name R.D. Burman together with lyricist Majrooh Sultanpuri. These two have ensured that songs from that time will be close to the hearts of every generation of coolie. Bappi Lahri is another fave composer with his pioneering works with ancient coolie riddim patterns through a synth. In my opinion, West Indians playing such at home is the biggest influence on the riddim patterns of Dancehall, Soca and Reggaeton
Recommended mix of coolie composers
Personal picks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIOXNiP7HJo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mqqy4t92P0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyFoyHT8s8
Thanks and regards
Randy
You make a good point with the primer bit. Maybe its also time for me to set up with some sort of RTA to monitor response visually. Is there such a thing for home workshop?
SPL requirements
Difficult for me to define. I suppose the output of four sets of Logitech Z623 with half the satellites facing backwards along the desk edge would need to be matched by the new cab pair standing about 3m away from the desk and similar apart
Is this legit? If so then it would be a game changer (I absolutely hate this term) for FR out of a single unit and if it measures well for box use then it's a new driver option. Just basing on my understanding of things, which may be full of misconceptions, it's time to get serious on this. Can this Phoenix Gold driver be the basis for an ideal monitor. Would such a project then fit FR or Multiway pigeonhole?
Maybe. KEF seem to make pretty flat response coaxials of this type, however response measurements I see even from high end vendors like SEAS are all pretty rough/ragged. I don't know what "Corona Lens" refers to since in the assembly blow-up there's no room for much of anything. But Phoenix Gold consistently made good stuff back in the day.
- Coaxials are really "multiway" because you need a crossover to protect the tweeter.
KEF coaxials use quite a bit of technology to get frequency response as flat as they do. The Tangerine Waveguide/cone interface/cone and the nearly flat surround all help on that front.
But the response anomalies caused by typical coaxials also tend to measure worse than they sound. They can make voicing a little fussier than normal, but it's not typically insurmountable.
But the response anomalies caused by typical coaxials also tend to measure worse than they sound. They can make voicing a little fussier than normal, but it's not typically insurmountable.
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That's a high-end monitor coax above and the MX 6.5 below. I put win magnifier on the MX6.5 and there is a cover with a slit under the mesh dome. Is this the lens/waveguide. Very intrigued by these drivers. I do want the speakers to measure well too. Power limit seems to be the limit with a single FR unit from any source. This and the Pioneer seem to be my best contenders. Looks like a multiway is getting made
With the MX6.5 driver, now to decide on BR or TL. More importantly, these will be the fore and aft driver in series for the required 8R per cab. So I will need two pairs of drivers or 4 units. Another issue is independent volumes or common and in or out of phase if common. The phase issue can be answered by the ear or measurements, I suppose. That leaves the divider partition, would having independent volumes be better?
MX65CX
$189.00
MX65CX
MX 6.5" Dual Concentric Coaxial Speakers
$189.00
Description
MX Series of Full Range Speakers feature a Dual Concentric Coaxial Design which allows the sound of each driver to emanate from a single point, eliminating frequency interference and phase issues. Corona Lens allows for better off-axis listening by producing a uniform and articulate sound field in all directions, resulting in correct phase and improved time alignment. These features are combined to create an engrossing listening experience with detail, impact and tonality unrivaled from any other speakers in or even double MX’s price point. The MX drivers will be an easy drop-in replacement with an excellent increase in performance and sound quality from stock locations.Features
- Shallow Mount- Allows for easy installation behind factory panels
- Dual Concentric Design-Provides excellent off-axis response as the woofer and tweeter share a common center thus focusing the sound of both drivers in a uniform field of sound resulting in premium sound quality from stock locations
- Polypropylene Carbon Impregnated Cone- Strong yet lightweight material for crisp, accurate mid and low notes
- High-Temperature Voice Coil- Our proprietary Torriform Technology provides superior current distribution while effectively dissipating heat
- Phoeniroll Surround Technology- A Phoenix Gold Standard that supports smooth linear movement for optimal accuracy
- Silk Dome Tweeter- delivers rich, warm treble with remarkable clarity and definition
- Corona Lens- Our unique waveguide technology, focuses the tweeter correcting any phase cancellation that occurs in traditional “point source” speakers. The lens provides a smooth blend of the tweeter frequencies with mid woofer by dispersing the sound waves in a balanced fashion
Manual
Download ManualSpecifications
- Power Handling (RMS) 100w
- Peak Power Handling 150w
- Frequency Response 59hz-20khz
- Impedance 4ohm
- FS 67hz
- Vas 11.8Lrt
- Xmax 10mm
- Qts 0.419
- Sensitivity (1W/M) 90dB
- Cone Material PP cone
- Surround Material rubber surround
- Tweeter Size (mm) 25mm
- Tweeter Material silk
- Magnet diameter φ100x15mm
- Magnet Weight 469.5g
It's a pity oscilloscopes aren't more popular as debugging tools. A small battery powered one (so everything is floating and the 'ground' clip won't short anything) could be invaluable and a good sanity check to see what kind of voltages you are actually getting across the amplifier output in real-world usage.
Without that sort-of benchmark, it's hard to speculate if:
-- the speakers are being overdriven,
-- the amplifier is being overdriven,
-- some level of listening discomfort is being reached, due to moderate distortion, even though everything is still within spec.
There's nothing wrong with the multiway call. It doesn't really fix the problems as such, it just shifts the power level up before they return. Getting more usable power from FR speakers can be a game of tinkering with exotic amplifiers and trying things out, like adding passive filters and adding pre-correction with DSP.
Without that sort-of benchmark, it's hard to speculate if:
-- the speakers are being overdriven,
-- the amplifier is being overdriven,
-- some level of listening discomfort is being reached, due to moderate distortion, even though everything is still within spec.
There's nothing wrong with the multiway call. It doesn't really fix the problems as such, it just shifts the power level up before they return. Getting more usable power from FR speakers can be a game of tinkering with exotic amplifiers and trying things out, like adding passive filters and adding pre-correction with DSP.
Or maybe I can make a better FR speaker, in the sense that all the sounds come from one speaker, regardless of the number of voice coils in that speaker. If a speaker had 4R + 4R DVC in one gap or 10, to me, it looks to be the same thing. It's just another form of stacking
If a monohull takes too much power to break hull speed, split it up and make a multi-hull that will fly with less power. To get a different result, change the rules!
The Pioneers do sound better than the Phoenix Golds. My hesitation was the pole stem and thanks to @Patrick Bateman, my fears are unfounded on that. I'll see if those drivers can be made to sound and measure well on in a cab. Then will use it as a reference sound to see if I can tune my coaxial concept to sound and plot better
If a monohull takes too much power to break hull speed, split it up and make a multi-hull that will fly with less power. To get a different result, change the rules!
The Pioneers do sound better than the Phoenix Golds. My hesitation was the pole stem and thanks to @Patrick Bateman, my fears are unfounded on that. I'll see if those drivers can be made to sound and measure well on in a cab. Then will use it as a reference sound to see if I can tune my coaxial concept to sound and plot better
Cleaned up the Pioneers. Check out how they have the cone shape, stem and tweeter. It sticks out forward of the roll surround. The terminal strip is very accessible, and the capacitor can be removed for biamping for electronic time alignment. I'll use that option. If I can get the cabs right, these have the potential to replace my current setup. It might be overkill, but I can't think of a more value or reliable option that to give these a FFA001V3 H/B module, a 1.1 DSP module and a tube line stage per cab
The beauty of the FFA001v3 H/B module is its built in PSU. It has mains input and aux PSU outs for single and dual supply for preamps and fans and things. With this board, I wouldn't need to mess with any other PSU for this cab
A 1.1 DSP board comes with TWS and perfect place to use it here
The beauty of the FFA001v3 H/B module is its built in PSU. It has mains input and aux PSU outs for single and dual supply for preamps and fans and things. With this board, I wouldn't need to mess with any other PSU for this cab
A 1.1 DSP board comes with TWS and perfect place to use it here
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