Hi ! this is very interesting and i did not know. So this delay thing is a little overstated ? speaking again of the speaker time response i wonder what could happen if the wires are swapped at the tweeter end and the TW wired in phase with the woofer ... that would be a textbook impulse response
I see. Then why the B6W dm6/801 are regarded as a benchmark design with their "multi-plane" baffles ? With drivers placed on the same plane probably there would not have been any difference in sound ?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8c/d7/15/8cd7153c3875a43d7d31df31bcfff20c.jpg
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Filter theory covers that.
It says that a filter does phase change at a certain stage
Odd order filters do 270° and 90° and equal order 180° and
Hi thanks a lot for the valuable advice. I read that a 24dB/octave filter keep the phase the same ? and that a passive 24dB/octave filter xover is very difficult to design/build ? i see that many active xovers are of this kind.
The Danley-invented Unity and its upgrade, the Syngery, are claimed to be very phase correct, a virtual point source. Elsewhere there are threads about time aligning of drivers, which is related to phase.
I am a happy user of a sort-of bastard Danley system, the Yorkville U15 Unity. Mine came used (trashed) and I always active EQ-ed them.
With DSP (JRiver Media Center), and REW, I have them EQ-ed and timing corrected, within my limited testing powers.
They are easily the most realistic imagining speakers I ever have owned, and I've had many (not horns though). Much of my material is 128K MP3 or its streamed equivalent. Most things sound wonderful. Surely this impression is not entirely due to the effects of cannibis herb.
Hi ! very very interesting. Thank you ! i love soundstage. I am afraid they are too much for a medium sized room I think i will look at coaxials in the end ... i am sure they will be a compromise. I hope a satisfactory one.
The response on axis would be wrong. This would be much worse.
A quote from Stereophile review...
stereophile said:
This i do not understand. You mean the FR ? How can it be wrong ? with dips and peaks ?
This i understand. Thank you !
The filters change the response and the phase. Now the phase is opposing from each driver.
Here is a random example (original post).
Here is a random example (original post).
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Thanks ! can we say that when the FR is fine and distortion is low as well, then phase is no problem ?
I mean no rudeness ginetto, but what do you understand phase to be?
When you apply an electrical signal to a voice coil or ribbon diaphragm, a sound wave is emitted. The relationship between the diaphragm movement and the production of the wave is the 'phase' of the emitted sound.
Even for one driver this is not a linear relationship, as with increasing frequency a progressively smaller are of the emitter is producing sound (and thus the location also changes for a cone driver, it moves 'inwards').
Now when you take a second sound source with a different diaphragm size and location (both in X- and Z-axis, sometime all three), things get very messy if you're purely looking at phase. And this is only acoustic phase we're talking about, there's also the drivers' electrical phase to consider.
As was said earlier in the thread (not by me), we use first arrival to locate sound source so yes, if distortion and FR is reasonable it is reasonable to assume that the speaker designer has properly aligned the driver phases over the crossover region. Any inconsistency here will create ripples in the frequency response, and you will see it in off-axis plots, with dips in the crossover region.
Even this is not a deal-breaker in most cases. The DSP between your ears is pretty powerful and has many tricks up its sleeve. My advice, stop thinking about it and enjoy the music!
Be rude please if i deserve it.
electrically speaking the power plug has phase, neutral and earth connections. The phase is where the voltage is. That is the only phase i understand.
no problem !
this is not that easy to understand I am confused. This concept is not straightforward i am afraid.thank you so much again. Now i understand that i should worry ONLY about FR and distortion and if they are ok this implies no phase issues.
For me it is more than enough. And actually now that i think about it i have never seen in the lab reports phase graphs ... this could be the reason. As the usual tests cover also the phase issue.
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The phase issue could be related to the position of the head
Hear, hear!
The phenomenon of sound when meeting the head, it wraps it, but there's a difference in travel, depending of the source position, and being about 8" apart the two ears, each one catching the lateral emisphere and being able to detect the first arrival. That said, a little movement can bring the ear, let's say 10 cm -which is in midband range as 3.432kHz has such a wavelenght- so let's put 5 cm as half wavelenght; well, at that frequency you'll encounter...what?!No, wait, what happens there ?
This is different. These are called phase to show that there is a ring of three of them, it is a name given by the distribution industry.
IIRC we have spoken about response, delay, diffraction. These are very important, but other things are also important. It is best to give more attention to the more important things first.
You mention distortion. All these things are distortions, there are many other distortions. It would be helpful if in future you could name them instead
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The phase issue could be related to the position of the head
Hear, hear!
The phenomenon of sound when meeting the head, it wraps it, but there's a difference in travel, depending of the source position, and being about 8" apart the two ears, each one catching the lateral emisphere and being able to detect the first arrival. That said, a little movement can bring the ear, let's say 10 cm -which is in midband range as 3.432kHz has such a wavelenght- so let's put 5 cm as half wavelenght; well, at that frequency you'll encounter...what?!No, wait, what happens there ?
Hi maybe ... but i am buying a cheap microphone to try to measure some FR in the listening position in the actual listening room. As a start ...
I understand that when the FR is reasonably flat is a very good thing.
IIRC we have spoken about response, delay, diffraction. These are very important, but other things are also important. It is best to give more attention to the more important things first.
You mention distortion. All these things are distortions, there are many other distortions. It would be helpful if in future you could name them instead
for distortion i mean the harmonic distortion mainly. The difference between output and input signal. To be honest i do not see many distortion measurements on speakers. This is quite strange but there must be a reason. Maybe the fact that many commercial speakers have bad performances on this parameter ? i do not know for sure.
But i believe in low noise and low distortion as a way to get good sound.
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I have found that a speaker with high level, low order non-linear distortion but low linear distortion, is much better than a speaker with low non-linear distortion and higher linear distortions.
This doesn't mean that I can't hear non-linear distortions, but I don't worry about some of them and I do worry about others. Mostly I like my amplifiers to keep their distortions simple and small. Speakers already produce simple non-linear distortions and I can hear them but I don't care as much, as long as other things are correct.
This doesn't mean that I can't hear non-linear distortions, but I don't worry about some of them and I do worry about others. Mostly I like my amplifiers to keep their distortions simple and small. Speakers already produce simple non-linear distortions and I can hear them but I don't care as much, as long as other things are correct.
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