Panicos K said:
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
That goes into my quotation book! Wish I had said that.
Otherwise with medical equipment, yes. And these days the increased application of digital stuff opens the door for the very gremlins not wanted around there.
About connectors (sorry for repeating in agreement): The last several posts so true! There very often is no more than line contact (with some luck, otherwise one might be left with point contact. What is the surface area of 100 points??), particularly with round pinned stuff. Flat stuff may have a better chance; still.
From Panicos
In most domestic cases, yes. Yet stuff is still sold by the hype: "Feels how easily it pulls out!" (Often just about the only thing the sales person is able to demonstrate - or understand.) Back to Panicos' first line.
In most domestic cases, yes. Yet stuff is still sold by the hype: "Feels how easily it pulls out!" (Often just about the only thing the sales person is able to demonstrate - or understand.)
Hi Johan,yes I meant in domestic cases.
Hi Johan,yes I meant in domestic cases.
260+ posts and no examples of what power cords in the wild actually carry? 
That's the output of a 2.5 volt EI filament transformer loaded with a 1 ohm resistor driven with typical British Colombian urban utilities. The left-hand meter readings have no meaning in this context. A 5 volt toroid gives substantially the same result. That voltage will be induced between a power cable's ends in proportion to the current drawn, the cord's impedance, etc.. Best case, with all the audio equipment plugged into a single internally-referenced power bar the voltage induced in each cord may or may not appear on each chassis voltage, contingent on earthing practices, interconnect impedance, plus plus plus.
Does it have an impact on audio quality in a typical 'non-pathological' scenario? Heck if I know, I have enough trouble bringing a project to completion without distraction by a new shiny to sweat power cords. Still, it's worth bearing in mind that the above + RF + dynamic music currents are flying through one of the ground paths interconnecting your various audio devices.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
That's the output of a 2.5 volt EI filament transformer loaded with a 1 ohm resistor driven with typical British Colombian urban utilities. The left-hand meter readings have no meaning in this context. A 5 volt toroid gives substantially the same result. That voltage will be induced between a power cable's ends in proportion to the current drawn, the cord's impedance, etc.. Best case, with all the audio equipment plugged into a single internally-referenced power bar the voltage induced in each cord may or may not appear on each chassis voltage, contingent on earthing practices, interconnect impedance, plus plus plus.
Does it have an impact on audio quality in a typical 'non-pathological' scenario? Heck if I know, I have enough trouble bringing a project to completion without distraction by a new shiny to sweat power cords. Still, it's worth bearing in mind that the above + RF + dynamic music currents are flying through one of the ground paths interconnecting your various audio devices.
Well, that is certainly worth noting, Rdf!
Full marks for actually showing some stuff! We stand corrected.
But then to conclusions. You state that this is the spectrum analysis of the output of a filament transformer loaded to 2,5A (that will then be 3,5Ap). I am unsure of why you state that this will (also) be flowing through a ground path, nevertheless.
Then I notice that the harmonics above 0,1% amplitude are odd-order. This could typically result from a transformer somewhat going into core saturation; at the low values shown, normal for most transformers before actual specified overload. With that I am not deprecating your evidence, just wishing that one could have had the same picture directly on the mains, or perhaps with an unloaded (good) transformer.
You also state that that voltage (I take it you mean the harmonics) will be induced at a power cable's ends in proportion to the current drawn, the cord's impedance, etc.. But any domestic power cord is of negligible length (thus of negligible impedance), compared to the total of the power line. Thus the power cord's effect will be negligible - this is part of the basic objection against a fixation with power cords to the exclusion of the total picture.
From what is evident from the comments of many contributors is that a power cord is magically expected to cure effects on a system of which it is a negligible part. Sure, one needs to take care of undesirable disturbances/artifacts, and for that one might need a simple/involved filter, depending.
My problem with much of this thread (apart from the negligible part played by a power cord lenghtwise), is that the same kind of cable construction which is supposedly required to let signal through unadulterated (interconnects and speaker stuff), is now advocated to act as a desirable filter! (Ergo, there are audible improvements 'with it in the line'; it clears up mains nonsense such as what your spectrum shows and worse.)
I admit to never having analysed mains here - I would imagine it would depend on all sort of things inside and outside the home and therefore differ from area to area. But I hope you see my problem with the supposed logic. Perhaps you can make a hook-up to your mains itself, without endangering your analyser or yourself.
Full marks for actually showing some stuff! We stand corrected.
But then to conclusions. You state that this is the spectrum analysis of the output of a filament transformer loaded to 2,5A (that will then be 3,5Ap). I am unsure of why you state that this will (also) be flowing through a ground path, nevertheless.
Then I notice that the harmonics above 0,1% amplitude are odd-order. This could typically result from a transformer somewhat going into core saturation; at the low values shown, normal for most transformers before actual specified overload. With that I am not deprecating your evidence, just wishing that one could have had the same picture directly on the mains, or perhaps with an unloaded (good) transformer.
You also state that that voltage (I take it you mean the harmonics) will be induced at a power cable's ends in proportion to the current drawn, the cord's impedance, etc.. But any domestic power cord is of negligible length (thus of negligible impedance), compared to the total of the power line. Thus the power cord's effect will be negligible - this is part of the basic objection against a fixation with power cords to the exclusion of the total picture.
From what is evident from the comments of many contributors is that a power cord is magically expected to cure effects on a system of which it is a negligible part. Sure, one needs to take care of undesirable disturbances/artifacts, and for that one might need a simple/involved filter, depending.
My problem with much of this thread (apart from the negligible part played by a power cord lenghtwise), is that the same kind of cable construction which is supposedly required to let signal through unadulterated (interconnects and speaker stuff), is now advocated to act as a desirable filter! (Ergo, there are audible improvements 'with it in the line'; it clears up mains nonsense such as what your spectrum shows and worse.)
I admit to never having analysed mains here - I would imagine it would depend on all sort of things inside and outside the home and therefore differ from area to area. But I hope you see my problem with the supposed logic. Perhaps you can make a hook-up to your mains itself, without endangering your analyser or yourself.
Hi Johan! The transformer (Triad) is rated 2.5 volt 10 amps, the test circuit ran 1/4 rated current, so it's probably safe to eliminate saturation. Again, a 5 volt toroid looked much the same. You do suggest a good point in that a transformer won't pass anything common mode so this graph is probably an optimistic reflection of the noise on the lines. One M-Audio USB audio interface and attendant USB port were already lost to the gremlins of measurement, I'll pass on tying the Firewire replacement to mains lines. It's safe to assume this is the noise on BC utilities. Many providers put their operational specifications online, they're worth a look. You might be surprised at amount of acceptable distortion and noise.
Don't discount the potential drop across a power cord, a buddy's ancient SAE 200 watt amp literally dims room lights at full pop. I didn't state it was flowing through the ground path - how much does, if any, depends on a slew of variables - but it does flow through the power cord. And not all power cords are 3 wire IEC, CD players being a good example where it's commonly not the case. It's true power cords have low impedance, it might not be that the effect is negligible due to the logarithmic scaling of our ears. Nothing's given and it depends on PS transformer primary leakage, device power entry bypass techniques, etc.. The only point I was trying to make is the situation is much more complex than addressable with 'what about all the wire to the power plant?' If anything is going on, to my mind the place start looking is the spaghetti of ground references and loops between system devices and the nearest common power point, whether it's the power bar behind the equipment stand or the breaker panel.
Don't discount the potential drop across a power cord, a buddy's ancient SAE 200 watt amp literally dims room lights at full pop. I didn't state it was flowing through the ground path - how much does, if any, depends on a slew of variables - but it does flow through the power cord. And not all power cords are 3 wire IEC, CD players being a good example where it's commonly not the case. It's true power cords have low impedance, it might not be that the effect is negligible due to the logarithmic scaling of our ears. Nothing's given and it depends on PS transformer primary leakage, device power entry bypass techniques, etc.. The only point I was trying to make is the situation is much more complex than addressable with 'what about all the wire to the power plant?' If anything is going on, to my mind the place start looking is the spaghetti of ground references and loops between system devices and the nearest common power point, whether it's the power bar behind the equipment stand or the breaker panel.
rdf: I think Johan's point goes more to superposition, which is why I'm pretty dismissive of the unsubstantiated claims of power cord "magic." Your dimming lights example is further evidence of this viewpoint
No question, though, power line noise ought to be filtered, and even die-hards like me use a good common mode filter in the PEM. With this in mind, the idea of making the mains connection higher bandwidth borders on the bizarre.
No question, though, power line noise ought to be filtered, and even die-hards like me use a good common mode filter in the PEM. With this in mind, the idea of making the mains connection higher bandwidth borders on the bizarre.
Thanks, Rdf,
No quibble with anything in your last post. I agree about what can come through the mains. Only you would have noticed my difficulty to accept that a 'good' (exotic?) power cord is either responsible or can audibly 'cure' any of that on its own.
You drive me to go look on my mains - time for me to be careful! I cannot at present do spec. analysis (
). But I have the good fortune to live in a 'clean area'.
(Oh yea? Now it will be your fault if I lie awake tonight because of what I find. 🙂 🙂 🙂 )
Thanks again for your picture.
No quibble with anything in your last post. I agree about what can come through the mains. Only you would have noticed my difficulty to accept that a 'good' (exotic?) power cord is either responsible or can audibly 'cure' any of that on its own.
You drive me to go look on my mains - time for me to be careful! I cannot at present do spec. analysis (
). But I have the good fortune to live in a 'clean area'.(Oh yea? Now it will be your fault if I lie awake tonight because of what I find. 🙂 🙂 🙂 )
Thanks again for your picture.
And don't any one dare to say he knows better than me
Just curious Ty Bower,was your choice of this particular "sketch"by chance? In my humble opinion it contains an amount of politics and racism wich as a Cypriot I find offensive.I would kindly ask the moderators to evaluate it and if possible delete it.Thank you.
Panicos K said:
Not to mention a naked woman!!!! Immediately someone censor this. How inappropriate.
OK.
.......................................................... ?
Since this was elicited by my post, I took it jokingly (and precisely!) illustrative of my position. I would give Ty the benefit that he purposely left the final part of the original unquoted because it had nothing to do with the subject and would have lowered the standard. (Satire without sensitivity and respect quickly degenerates into that sort of thing - ask us in the RSA who are still observed by many to be a most politically sensitive nation; at least I know what I am talking about 😉 )
I would urge Panikos to see it that way.
Back to power cords - and I am still waiting for Cheap-Jack to reply regarding my post #234.
(Edit: I removed a sentence some minutes later which I think was inappropriate. Apology to members who have seen it.)
.......................................................... ?
Since this was elicited by my post, I took it jokingly (and precisely!) illustrative of my position. I would give Ty the benefit that he purposely left the final part of the original unquoted because it had nothing to do with the subject and would have lowered the standard. (Satire without sensitivity and respect quickly degenerates into that sort of thing - ask us in the RSA who are still observed by many to be a most politically sensitive nation; at least I know what I am talking about 😉 )
I would urge Panikos to see it that way.
Back to power cords - and I am still waiting for Cheap-Jack to reply regarding my post #234.
(Edit: I removed a sentence some minutes later which I think was inappropriate. Apology to members who have seen it.)
(With pardon to Moderators):
Members, I am now going out for supper.
Please don't start another fight before I'm back .....
Members, I am now going out for supper.
Please don't start another fight before I'm back .....
I don't care of cords, except when use some outboard gear with asymmetrical ins/outs. All my stuff has well regulated power sources where needed, but what impacts, that white-and-green ground wire. It must be thick, and connected to the same outlet the rest is connected to. The gear connected to different outlets have transformer balanced ins/outs.
However, recording concerts on computer I had to connect it through an isolating transformer to avoid impact of it's SMPS on ground loop currents.
However, recording concerts on computer I had to connect it through an isolating transformer to avoid impact of it's SMPS on ground loop currents.
After reading this post it occurred to me that the way a person evaluates the sonics of something such as an interconnect may be attributed mostly to mental state/perception awareness/mental control. To explain: when one meditates and becomes very in tune with the workings of their ego/inner energy/etc., certain changes in perception are vastly amplified. Changes in perception can arrise from many sources, many of which I have noticed upon my own meditative examination out of mood, hunger, what is in the blood of that persons body (levels of proteins and sugars from food/drugs) and external factors. All of these factors contribute to enough perception changes to create enough evidence in a convinced audiophile that a different power socket made a 'huge' difference.
At least, I think?
At least, I think?
Hi Anatoliy,
We think very much along the same lines.
All,
In practice, I have found that equipment with well designed power supplies tend to be immune from AC power characteristics. This same equipment is generally well designed throughout, so no boo-boos with grounds and where leads run.
Imagine for a moment, all the sensitive equipment. Audio Precision AP-2, most spectrum analyzers, MRI receiver amplifiers and on. Too many to list. The average spectrum analyzer can easily top $50K, the least expensive "real" one I know of runs around $9K in a basic, stripped configuration. They easily exceed $100K for upper end models. Do you think that if a power cord could possibly help with noise or performance at -120 dB and lower, they would not hesitate to use these cords?
These applications are looking at signal levels, often in the audio range, well below what sound reproduction equipment deals with. If they can't see any difference (whether it can be quantified, or not), I can assure you that you can't either.
Looking at things a different way, most power supplies in audio equipment are either not very good or have actual design faults. You know what? If you have a piece of equipment that has a substandard power supply, don't you think the problem should be addressed at the source? You shouldn't need a special power cord for your gear to sound good. If the problems were fixed, imagine how much better that equipment would sound.
Sadly, sometimes it is the most expensive stuff that has the worst problems in the design of the power supply. Outboard power supplies have their own issues, so you aren't safe there either.
-Chris
We think very much along the same lines.
All,
In practice, I have found that equipment with well designed power supplies tend to be immune from AC power characteristics. This same equipment is generally well designed throughout, so no boo-boos with grounds and where leads run.
Imagine for a moment, all the sensitive equipment. Audio Precision AP-2, most spectrum analyzers, MRI receiver amplifiers and on. Too many to list. The average spectrum analyzer can easily top $50K, the least expensive "real" one I know of runs around $9K in a basic, stripped configuration. They easily exceed $100K for upper end models. Do you think that if a power cord could possibly help with noise or performance at -120 dB and lower, they would not hesitate to use these cords?
These applications are looking at signal levels, often in the audio range, well below what sound reproduction equipment deals with. If they can't see any difference (whether it can be quantified, or not), I can assure you that you can't either.
Looking at things a different way, most power supplies in audio equipment are either not very good or have actual design faults. You know what? If you have a piece of equipment that has a substandard power supply, don't you think the problem should be addressed at the source? You shouldn't need a special power cord for your gear to sound good. If the problems were fixed, imagine how much better that equipment would sound.
Sadly, sometimes it is the most expensive stuff that has the worst problems in the design of the power supply. Outboard power supplies have their own issues, so you aren't safe there either.
-Chris
Chris, I agree completely. The problem is the majority of audiophiles are not competent in any way with electronics, so there is a market for plug in audio jewellery which does bot actually need to make a quantitative difference, so long as the purchaser thinks it does.anatech said:
Evenharmonics said:
"So you heard the difference between those two cables... Where did you get your education from, Audio Asylum? You did? Well, that's understandable."
Mmmm, the internet generation. Some of us have noticed the importance of wire in the seventies. You have a similarly convincing explanation for this too?
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