lmao...
I just had a mental image of a recording studio - cables strewn all over the place, crossing and re-crossing each other, signals rising and falling introducing lord-only-know-what level of crosstalk, capacitance, inductive reactance etc. And thats just the signal paths. How about those supply cords?
Then in a poroxism of delight, I considered an outside broadcast or recording set-up, faithfully reproducing the delicate nuances of a live production whilst in the evil clutches of invariably variable power supply quality and quantity.
Chances of a set of silver cored, holographically enhanced, cryogenically minimalised exponentially expensive cables in that environment are pretty damn remote...
So, if its ok at source, whats the problem at end user?
Sorry guys, but high-end power supply cables (and to a large extent, interconnects) are right up thier with fuel improvements formulas to increase your gas milage... You get the result you expect because you expect the result.
I just had a mental image of a recording studio - cables strewn all over the place, crossing and re-crossing each other, signals rising and falling introducing lord-only-know-what level of crosstalk, capacitance, inductive reactance etc. And thats just the signal paths. How about those supply cords?
Then in a poroxism of delight, I considered an outside broadcast or recording set-up, faithfully reproducing the delicate nuances of a live production whilst in the evil clutches of invariably variable power supply quality and quantity.
Chances of a set of silver cored, holographically enhanced, cryogenically minimalised exponentially expensive cables in that environment are pretty damn remote...
So, if its ok at source, whats the problem at end user?
Sorry guys, but high-end power supply cables (and to a large extent, interconnects) are right up thier with fuel improvements formulas to increase your gas milage... You get the result you expect because you expect the result.
Wow,
I read all 9 pages - sucker for punishment!!
So what did I conclude from all 9 pages. I think a lot of folk are off on the wrong track. What is required is not the best cable you can get, quite the opposite, the power cord should be made from the crappiest cable you can get, something with lots of capacitance from active and neutral to ground and lots of series inductance in the active and neutral wires.
Or you can do what I do - use that PC Power Cable into a "standard" IEC mains filtered input socket on the amp to achieve the same result.
Ducking for cover
Cheers,
Ian
I read all 9 pages - sucker for punishment!!
So what did I conclude from all 9 pages. I think a lot of folk are off on the wrong track. What is required is not the best cable you can get, quite the opposite, the power cord should be made from the crappiest cable you can get, something with lots of capacitance from active and neutral to ground and lots of series inductance in the active and neutral wires.
Or you can do what I do - use that PC Power Cable into a "standard" IEC mains filtered input socket on the amp to achieve the same result.
Ducking for cover
Cheers,
Ian
Re: I don't think so.
After having worked with musos for many years, I would never take the opinion of one for sound; music yes, sound no.
1: I don't listen during start up
2: the typical small synchronous motor in a Thorens TT is about 5W (I've had a few). Allowing for the fact that draw during start can be as much as 10x greater, for a few seconds, it might draw a couple of amps secondary current. Mains draw will be 10-20x less (depending upon tx voltage transformation) so a couple of hundred milliamps on start, and considerably less in normal use, ie at speed.
1.5m of 14ga wire (rated for 32A continuous) has about 12.5 milliohms resistance, 2.5 micro henries of inductance (XL=780 micro ohms) and a couple of hundred picofarads of capacitance (XC = 235 ohms).
What is the inductance and shunt capacitance of a typical small power transformer to reduce the mains to 12Vac of many synchronous AC TT motors? And the reflected impedance of the motor itself into the primary (keep it simple, at speed)?
What is the series resistance and inductance of the mains into your dwelling, as well as it's shunt capacitance.
Please calculate the effects of these impedances in a general system as described, and explain why they are 'substantial' and how they will affect operation of the motor.
I await your detailed reply.
I was being facetious.cheap-Jack said:
After having worked with musos for many years, I would never take the opinion of one for sound; music yes, sound no.
Who cares if it draws a greater load a start than during play? It's completely irrelevant for two reasons:cheap-Jack said:
1: I don't listen during start up
2: the typical small synchronous motor in a Thorens TT is about 5W (I've had a few). Allowing for the fact that draw during start can be as much as 10x greater, for a few seconds, it might draw a couple of amps secondary current. Mains draw will be 10-20x less (depending upon tx voltage transformation) so a couple of hundred milliamps on start, and considerably less in normal use, ie at speed.
Significant, huh?cheap-Jack said:
1.5m of 14ga wire (rated for 32A continuous) has about 12.5 milliohms resistance, 2.5 micro henries of inductance (XL=780 micro ohms) and a couple of hundred picofarads of capacitance (XC = 235 ohms).
What is the inductance and shunt capacitance of a typical small power transformer to reduce the mains to 12Vac of many synchronous AC TT motors? And the reflected impedance of the motor itself into the primary (keep it simple, at speed)?
What is the series resistance and inductance of the mains into your dwelling, as well as it's shunt capacitance.
Please calculate the effects of these impedances in a general system as described, and explain why they are 'substantial' and how they will affect operation of the motor.
I await your detailed reply.
I'm an electronics engineer with two decades in RF, broadcast and now the power industry.cheap-Jack said:
Big deal. My late missus was a classically trained pianist too, and regarding music, I listened to her, but regarding sound, she, like almost every other muso I have met (I'm also a bassist and have played on and off for many years) are the worst people to ask about sound quality.cheap-Jack said:
Re: lmao...
You get the result you expect because you expect the result. [/B][/QUOTE]
That is DBP(double blind purchase)😀 I know of many who do this.One has bought a pair of 5 years used speaker cables with some huge boxes on one end of the cables for $5000,and you guessed right,he liked them after they have arrived from USA.I don't think that any one here including myself has shown that he operates this way.Therefore I cannot understand why some here insist on making comments as if some other here operate this way.Why some get so much satisfaction by trying to insult someone's intelligence and decisions is IMO a more interresting thing to study than those who might even imagine things.Yes,there are here some who don't understand physics and engineering so well as most here.But this does not and cannot limit the human hearing ability and hearing mechanisms.Not to mention that from experience,many don't even know how to listen to music.Reading many comments in this and other threads,an observer can conclude that the main issue is cost.We read about cheap cables,cheap tubes,cheap of everything,and read claims that we have made our own cables for $20 end many more.Is this the idea of DIY,to make things as cheap as possible,or make better things for less?The easiest thing to do is go out there and buy a cable and do your job,or take a few runs of wire and make your own cable.It has its fun and it has its pride,and we all did that.Some stay with them for good,some don't.
In another post we have read that musicians are not the people to trust on sound quality.A musician judges music as someone who is in the middle of his band while they play.For him that is the real thing and whatever you say to him he will laugh at you.I know of a few musicians and they react this way.They have their point don't they?BUT we judge them🙂
You get the result you expect because you expect the result. [/B][/QUOTE]
That is DBP(double blind purchase)😀 I know of many who do this.One has bought a pair of 5 years used speaker cables with some huge boxes on one end of the cables for $5000,and you guessed right,he liked them after they have arrived from USA.I don't think that any one here including myself has shown that he operates this way.Therefore I cannot understand why some here insist on making comments as if some other here operate this way.Why some get so much satisfaction by trying to insult someone's intelligence and decisions is IMO a more interresting thing to study than those who might even imagine things.Yes,there are here some who don't understand physics and engineering so well as most here.But this does not and cannot limit the human hearing ability and hearing mechanisms.Not to mention that from experience,many don't even know how to listen to music.Reading many comments in this and other threads,an observer can conclude that the main issue is cost.We read about cheap cables,cheap tubes,cheap of everything,and read claims that we have made our own cables for $20 end many more.Is this the idea of DIY,to make things as cheap as possible,or make better things for less?The easiest thing to do is go out there and buy a cable and do your job,or take a few runs of wire and make your own cable.It has its fun and it has its pride,and we all did that.Some stay with them for good,some don't.
In another post we have read that musicians are not the people to trust on sound quality.A musician judges music as someone who is in the middle of his band while they play.For him that is the real thing and whatever you say to him he will laugh at you.I know of a few musicians and they react this way.They have their point don't they?BUT we judge them🙂
nice to see you retain your soh panicos!
and a good point too, if it is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder (or the ear of the listener, in this case).
and a good point too, if it is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder (or the ear of the listener, in this case).
In the way you describe things,yes I agree.But on the real level/way there is another view of the truth.Example:My daughter asked me to tell her if I liked a computer drawing for her customer's house(she is an interior designer).Without my bresbyopia glasses I could hardly see the details.With my glasses,yes her drawing was beautiful.So,yes,the beauty can be in the eyes (or ears as you said)of the beholder,literally.That is one of the many reasons why we must accept that we don't know,see,hear.......everything and forever🙂 This is life.
This is what you should do:
1) Get a regular computer power cord
2) Buy a hospital grade power cord usually around $5. The connectors are better then option 1, the wire is shielded. The Volex/Belden is a good option. You want a better grade connectors and shielded 14AWG wire.
3) Build your own with good quality components. You can follow the tips from John Risch http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm
I used a Hubbell 8200 series hospital grade outlet, Marinco IEC and male AC plug, Belden 19364 wire.
You can go crazy here and buy cryoed. A reasonnable range is between $50 and $100. A good source is http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/shopdisplaycategories.asp?id=1&cat=DIY+Supplies
Test and compare your 3 selections !
If you do not ear the difference between options 1-2 and 3, you spent about $100 and you have a very good power cord and outlet with a solid connection at both ends. You will also be able to re-test the 3 options if you buy or make other hifi gear.
If you see a difference between them and are not happy with option 3, go crazy and buy the most expensive power cord within your power cord budget. You can also build your own with very expensive components.
My 2 cents.
1) Get a regular computer power cord
2) Buy a hospital grade power cord usually around $5. The connectors are better then option 1, the wire is shielded. The Volex/Belden is a good option. You want a better grade connectors and shielded 14AWG wire.
3) Build your own with good quality components. You can follow the tips from John Risch http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm
I used a Hubbell 8200 series hospital grade outlet, Marinco IEC and male AC plug, Belden 19364 wire.
You can go crazy here and buy cryoed. A reasonnable range is between $50 and $100. A good source is http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/shopdisplaycategories.asp?id=1&cat=DIY+Supplies
Test and compare your 3 selections !
If you do not ear the difference between options 1-2 and 3, you spent about $100 and you have a very good power cord and outlet with a solid connection at both ends. You will also be able to re-test the 3 options if you buy or make other hifi gear.
If you see a difference between them and are not happy with option 3, go crazy and buy the most expensive power cord within your power cord budget. You can also build your own with very expensive components.
My 2 cents.
lowtherdream said:
$100!? You crazy? Most "contributors" here have less invested in their entire systems...
chrish said:
On the other side of the plug there is more crappy wire.The more you get rid of,the better.
Panicos K said:
Commonly they are Romex wire (at least around where I am). Why is that crappy wire?
Here where I am they are crappy as no one is checking qualitywise.Plain pvc oxidized solid cores.The last one I've seen before changing the line that goes to my room(4.5m from the AC board/counter to my hi-fi,bypassing all house wiring),was nearly black 15-20cm inside the pvc.
Evenharmonics said:
Hi.
Yes, they may be considered as "crappy" for audio use.
Most, if not all, building wires available from many hardware stores in Northern America, e.g. Romax, THW, TFFN etc. are built with recyled copper smelted from scraps of demolished buildings & surpluses.
For very best signal transfer, I only use oxygen-free pure copper wires or even 4N pure silver for all my DIY benchworks. No recycled copper please.
c-J
cheap-Jack said:
You do realised copper ore is usually dug up from the ground , don't you ? That's got to have more impurities in it than reclaimed copper . What is the issue with recycled metals anyway ?
This thread is getting ridiculous
It's in the wrong place . No tubes whatsoever
Never mind (flame suit on)
316A
Good observation!
Besides the fact that most building wires installed inside the wall or above the ceiling of your house in Northern America, are 'crappy" recycled copper, they also form a huge antenna loop surrounding yr house for receiving & transmitting RFI generated from so many digitial gadgets operation in the house, e.g. flat panel TVs, PCs & monitors, chargers of cell-phones, housephones & cameras ,etc etc.
For nowadays hi-end audios, power conditioners are indispensable to remove RFI/EMI polluating the entire power line system in your house which will easly get into yr audio equipment via the the wallouts hooked up to them.
The most effective way to "get rid more the better", like what I have DIY done for my audio rig, is to install dedicated power lines direct from the main circuit breaker/fuse panel to power your audios without using the RFI polluated wallouts.
Please beware the wallouts are like sewers feeding yr auido gears.
c-J
Panicos K said:
Besides the fact that most building wires installed inside the wall or above the ceiling of your house in Northern America, are 'crappy" recycled copper, they also form a huge antenna loop surrounding yr house for receiving & transmitting RFI generated from so many digitial gadgets operation in the house, e.g. flat panel TVs, PCs & monitors, chargers of cell-phones, housephones & cameras ,etc etc.
For nowadays hi-end audios, power conditioners are indispensable to remove RFI/EMI polluating the entire power line system in your house which will easly get into yr audio equipment via the the wallouts hooked up to them.
The most effective way to "get rid more the better", like what I have DIY done for my audio rig, is to install dedicated power lines direct from the main circuit breaker/fuse panel to power your audios without using the RFI polluated wallouts.
Please beware the wallouts are like sewers feeding yr auido gears.
c-J
YOU are talking more ridiculous, pal.
Hi.
Who cares what raw copper ore made up of?
We are concern on the refined copper wires used to carry music paths in TUBE amps. Here is tube/DIY fourm.
FYI, all copper wires for home & industrial use in Northern America must comply ASTM (American Standards of Testing Methods) B (1- 768) & F (9-468) for various applications.
c-J
316a said:
Hi.
Who cares what raw copper ore made up of?
We are concern on the refined copper wires used to carry music paths in TUBE amps. Here is tube/DIY fourm.
FYI, all copper wires for home & industrial use in Northern America must comply ASTM (American Standards of Testing Methods) B (1- 768) & F (9-468) for various applications.
c-J
kuroguy, your post was removed. It doesn't matter how you feel about a subject, you don't post like that here. Next offense, bin time.
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