Hi SY ,
You made a mistake :
You quote my phrase partially , because in the original
one , at the end , I wrote : -- I beg your pardon .
If you do not know that , let me explain to you , what I want to
say when I beg your pardon , during a debate is the same as :
“EXCUSE me , BUT , I will express my oppinion , SORRY if it is
different from yours .”
As you can see , a very , very polite way to express any personal
point of view .
Your post ( or reply , whatever ) , where you said :
In my oppinion it is not a polite way to talk with a forum’s fellow .
This is a reply that seems to want to put a final point in a debate , where ONLY your knowledge , your point of view and your own experience must and owe to win and overcome .
I am a mid old man with 33 years of much experience inside
the electronic audio field , particularly in audio high-end .
I could make the most different tests between power cords and
YES , they sound different . NOT very much different , but only
a BIT different , YES , the minimal difference is there , and ,
the best , you can hear it .
Obviously , the statment above is valid only with the restrictions
that I had made on my previous post. ( # 86 )
SY , I always read your posts paying total attention to them , and
always respect your point of view , even when I disagree from it .
I respect you as a very smart man and as a good moderator , then please , respect my experience as a professional , not a mythic , not a curious , not a voodoo expertise , not a guesser , just an engineer , that believes strongly in mathematics , laboratory tests , experience and in facts .
Respectfully , I think that EVERYTHING that must to be said ,
was said , both sides have expressed their oppinions .
Both sides have “pros” and “counters” , and peoples must analyze carefully the arguments and experiences , and take your own decision .
Regards for all ,
Carlos
You made a mistake :
You quote my phrase partially , because in the original
one , at the end , I wrote : -- I beg your pardon .
If you do not know that , let me explain to you , what I want to
say when I beg your pardon , during a debate is the same as :
“EXCUSE me , BUT , I will express my oppinion , SORRY if it is
different from yours .”
As you can see , a very , very polite way to express any personal
point of view .
Your post ( or reply , whatever ) , where you said :
SY said:
In my oppinion it is not a polite way to talk with a forum’s fellow .
This is a reply that seems to want to put a final point in a debate , where ONLY your knowledge , your point of view and your own experience must and owe to win and overcome .
I am a mid old man with 33 years of much experience inside
the electronic audio field , particularly in audio high-end .
I could make the most different tests between power cords and
YES , they sound different . NOT very much different , but only
a BIT different , YES , the minimal difference is there , and ,
the best , you can hear it .
Obviously , the statment above is valid only with the restrictions
that I had made on my previous post. ( # 86 )
SY , I always read your posts paying total attention to them , and
always respect your point of view , even when I disagree from it .
I respect you as a very smart man and as a good moderator , then please , respect my experience as a professional , not a mythic , not a curious , not a voodoo expertise , not a guesser , just an engineer , that believes strongly in mathematics , laboratory tests , experience and in facts .
Respectfully , I think that EVERYTHING that must to be said ,
was said , both sides have expressed their oppinions .
Both sides have “pros” and “counters” , and peoples must analyze carefully the arguments and experiences , and take your own decision .
Regards for all ,
Carlos
Yes! Some recording studios even run seperate technical grounds to keep the pollution out of the ground systems. As far as the power cord, as long as the resistance is low enough, and a $20 power cord will do this, it wont make any difference. Your adding 3 ft to 100s of regular cable that runs back to the distribution transformer, what so hard to understand?
cbdb said:
That this point is as relevant as the thousands of feet to the power plant? When all you have is an ohmmeter, every impedance looks R. Technical grounds are a whole 'nother snake pit.
Before the transformer, were talking Kilo volts, so resistance matters less, may still matter but I didnt want to add any more fuel to the fire.
With the high current pulses (limited by the trany not a normal cord) between the trany and PS caps, and the rail ripple which can be 10%, and all the noise the power switching diodes can add, how can the power cord change the sound? Theres no conection to the signal other than this already terrible path. Thats what PSRR is for.
I havnt read this whole thread, but would like to know what was better about the sound. Anything tangible or does it become HI-FI reviewer speak.
So what. It dosnt mean you hear better. (and if you play electric guitar or mix rock you probably hear worse). I work with a dozens people that average 15 to 20 years in recording studios and none of them would buy expensive power cords for there expensive systems.
With the high current pulses (limited by the trany not a normal cord) between the trany and PS caps, and the rail ripple which can be 10%, and all the noise the power switching diodes can add, how can the power cord change the sound? Theres no conection to the signal other than this already terrible path. Thats what PSRR is for.
I havnt read this whole thread, but would like to know what was better about the sound. Anything tangible or does it become HI-FI reviewer speak.
So what. It dosnt mean you hear better. (and if you play electric guitar or mix rock you probably hear worse). I work with a dozens people that average 15 to 20 years in recording studios and none of them would buy expensive power cords for there expensive systems.
cbdb said:
When I said "at least" I meant that Tony,the third person in the test,is not so much involved in music as George and I.Being in music does not necessarily mean that we play an instrument,although we happen to do so just for our fun.The power cable is of course the last cable one thinKs to replace,and I agree with you that nearly nobody does that.Many don't even bother to try a better microphone cable.Does it mean that it makes no difference?Everything in the chain does make a difference.A "controlled DBT" where the switch/switches can control ALL carefully chosen cables in a playback system against average cables,will reveal this to a greater extent and to more ears.
Carlos, nonetheless, you have proposed a straw man. Skeptics do NOT demand that everything be reduced to mathematics or be measurable. The only demand is that someone claiming to hear a difference between A and B, where engineering or measurement would indicate that there shouldn't be a difference, would be able to do so without peeking.
It appears to me he was proposing nothing at all. He was addressing only those particular skeptics that only believe in things that you can measure or express mathematically. There are plenty off those around, even if you aren't one.
John
John
I've never met one of these mystical "skeptics" who wouldn't accept the result of a good controlled listening test. In fact, quite the contrary, it's the unexplained stuff that CAN be substantiated that gets hard-nosed scientific types excited.
Conversely, presented with measurements showing the audible differences between two amplifiers can be ascribed to the fact sample B is a 4-th order bandpass centered at 500 Hz, I can't think of anyone who would discount the importance of audio measurements. Or framing the argument in that manner sidesteps the point.
Exactly. And with the predominance of the opposite type of claims filling the pages of "HI-FI" magazines even your average enthusiast is being turned off the pursuit of bettter sound. Have you not heard of the Pear cable chalange:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/exclusiv...00-challenge-we-search-for-answers-315250.php
Thats why the rational ones here need real proof.
And even when there is a difference, better is subjective. Read the thread in SS amps called "distortion.. do we like it"
cbdb said:
Really? It appears to me the number of easily available audio publications vastly increased in 25 years. Growing up only three were common on North American magazine racks. Those that stuck to measurements-uber-alles went extinct or became marginalized and hard to find, like Audio Critic. Who really gets credit for the pursuit of sound quality?
And how do you come to the conclusion enthusiasts are being 'turned off'? The number of on-line forums dedicated to good sound is a simple example of why that perception is false. Also consider that the mean audio quality of commodity consumer devices dwarfs that of commonly available studio equipment of the previous generation. $199 buys a Tascam portable recorder capable of hours of 24/96 recording from a couple AA batteries. We may have reached a point, not that enthusiasts are 'turned off', but that quality is good enough for most. Cassette & 8-track are dead.
In fact, your argument poses an irony. If it's true today's measurements and analytical design techniques have resulted in essentially blameless source and amplification devices, what is the pursuit of good sound?
Not all skeptics are is intelligent as you are. There are plenty of them who are just hard-headed types who wouldn't know a controlled test it they stepped on one.
It's really only a matter of semantics and punctuation. If Carlos had written, "To the skeptics, who only believe in things that you can measure or express mathematically,..." rather than, "To the skeptics that only believe in things that you can measure or express mathematically...", I would see your point.
As for James Randi's cable challenge, it has been continuously misrepresented on this forum as an end-all challenge that, because no one has ever taken it up, demonstrates the fraud in claims about cable. It has always only applied to a specific cable comparison and not to cables in general. Randi would never pay out the money regardless of the outcome of the test. Do you really suppose the test with Fremer would have ever taken place if after having auditioned the cables Fremer informed Randi he was ready to take the test because he could definitely hear a difference? James Randi is a hustler and winning that million would come under the heading of "Beating the Hustler at His Own Game".
John
rdf said:
Measurements-uber-alles were in demand because new and new models were needed to be promoted, so new measurements were invented. Look at the Otala thread in SS amps, pay attention on emotions that still heat blood, 30 years after the battle between inventors of new measurements that were needed to show that "our amp is better than theirs according to news scientific break-through discoveries!"
No such competition anymore between manufacturers. But we see competition between those who don't want to spend money on new toys, and those who want them to spend new money. That's why we see so many of magazines that hypnotize readers using words related to thirstiness, hungriness, good feelings, well beings, and so on. They sell happiness hypnotically suggesting joy in near future: "Buy a magical suggestion, and get nice speaker cables free!"
SY said:
The advertisements are targeted to the majority of readers. Most don't understand even the basics of statistics. For example I bet many people would fall for a claim like the following:
"In double blind A/B tests 50% of the test subjects prefer our brand of titanium wall outlet cover plates to normal plastic cover plates."
I'd bet most people (but few people here) would think the above means that the titanium plate sounds better. You have to remember that the people writing this ad copy likely were English majors. I still remember what my English teachers said: "write for the reader", "connect with what he already knows". "Write at the reader's level",... Ad copy writers live (or die) by these rules.
Not a bad point Wavebourn. Essentially published spec-driven purchases are sated and new opportunities marketed. How that holds for product like loudspeakers isn't clear, but still an valid perspective.
By that measure, astrology is more correct and relevant than astronomy.
John, I have some inside knowledge of the Randi challenge in this instance. It is quite sincere- the difficulty is that the claimants don't want to have real controls or compare two "night and day" cables that don't cause easily-measurable frequency response changes.
Maybe its just the people I know. How does an average listener wade thru all the BS and hard sell that encompasses "high end" sound (and just becuase you spent $100k on your system dosnt mean your not an average listener).
Magazines make most of their money on advertising, do I need to explain the rest?
Probably:
The companies who spend the big advertising (marketing) $ are the ones whos products sell for 100s of times what they cost to produce, and they wont advertise in mags that dont spoon feed there BS.
Nough time wasted trying to educate the superstitous, this is like trying to argue evolution with a religous zealot.
cbdb said:
Hoping you could construct a rational argument - for example one to explain why magazines would refuse advertising for Cary or turntables on 'moral' grounds - was expecting too much evidentally. Instead a retreat to stereotyping and ad hominem; always disappointing from those claiming the rationalist high ground because it misrepresents the spirit and methods of science.
How so? Have astrology publications usurped Astronomy, Discover, Scientific American, National Geographic...?
They outsell astronomy publications by an order of magnitude, yes. It's just that the overall niche is larger.
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