john curl said:
John,
your ability to stay ahead of not just mid-fi pack, but most of the high end as well, is unquestionable here.
But I must turn tables on you : it is unfortunate that you give the human ear-brain (or ANY human sense) SO MUCH credit.
Because pretty much all of our senses have been throughly discredited as too subjective in almost all fields of scientific reasearch.
I am very careful here in saying that noone (including you) does this deliberately. It is just unfortunate that our brain has too much power and this wonderful ability called illusion.
History of modern science is full of examples - astronomy, chemistry, physics, you name it. People (and some pretty special people too, often acknowledged leaders in their field of research) have been fooled by their sense/brain mechanism, fueled by the secret (or not so secret) desire to advance the state of the art.
I'm also pretty careful not to get in any of the discussion about power cables burn or any other activities (that objective side of me frankly shouts 'woodoo'), desperately trying to keep the mind open.
I am just saying that history teaches us that whenever conclusions have been made solely based on human sensory mechanisms and not using objective means, odds for the conclusion to be valid are rather bad.
Bratislav
PS there are some rather special fields of research where signals to be detected are so miniscule (gravity waves detection, cosmic background radiation mapping etc) that if the cables direction, burn-in etc. had any significant effect, I simply can't believe we haven't been reading about it long, long ago.
And don't anyone give me that old wives' story how home audio is more demanding, has to cover so many octaves at so much S/N. Check the level of signals and noise in any of the SOTA astronomical reasearch and then come back and discuss. Just the other day some clever dude calculated that all of the radio telescopes in the world put together collected less energy for the time they are operating than it gets released when ONE raindrop hits the ground.
Think about it for a second.
Bratislav said:
The other day? I remember back when Carl Sagan's Cosmos was first airing on PBS back in the 80s his giving that figure. Only Sagan said snowflake instead of raindrop. Perhaps we've collected a bit more energy since then. 🙂
se
I am really tired of people like millwood or Solid Snake, who try to talk about something they don't really understand.
I don't mind if you claim that there is no difference between cords and amps, but at least show some respect to people who claim that such difference exist. And don't ask for proof, as your ignorance and atitude doesn't justify any effort for such a proof to be given.
I can't understand why you even indulge yourself in that sort of dispute in a first place. You can't hear it, you never observed it and you don't believe people who claim they did. So what exactly is your problem? You can't stand the fact that there are people different than you? Are you jealous about their abilities or are you scared of them? Or is simply the only topic that actually allows you to talk about audio? I noticed long time ago that this is the case with millwood and now I see he found himself another dedicated follower.
I came to the point when I'm simply tired with discussing those matters and I know the argument will be never resolved to satisfy enough both parties.
PS: I can hear a diference between 1ft and 4 ft of the same type PC powering AC conditioner (no kidding). How 'bout that? Why don't you ask me to prove it to you?
I don't mind if you claim that there is no difference between cords and amps, but at least show some respect to people who claim that such difference exist. And don't ask for proof, as your ignorance and atitude doesn't justify any effort for such a proof to be given.
I can't understand why you even indulge yourself in that sort of dispute in a first place. You can't hear it, you never observed it and you don't believe people who claim they did. So what exactly is your problem? You can't stand the fact that there are people different than you? Are you jealous about their abilities or are you scared of them? Or is simply the only topic that actually allows you to talk about audio? I noticed long time ago that this is the case with millwood and now I see he found himself another dedicated follower.
I came to the point when I'm simply tired with discussing those matters and I know the argument will be never resolved to satisfy enough both parties.
PS: I can hear a diference between 1ft and 4 ft of the same type PC powering AC conditioner (no kidding). How 'bout that? Why don't you ask me to prove it to you?
Folks, I don't know what else to do. I can either ignore input that power cords make a difference, even in good equipment, or I accept it, when crossing every 't' is important, and make the extra effort. Of course, I must also disregard my own experience.
Actually, if analyzed, power cords do have several characteristics that people often not think about. For example, they are RF antennas! Almost the same length as our auto antenna. Also, the current waveform driving most electronic equipment is NOT anything like a 50-60Hz sine wave. What does this mean?
It is possible to experiment and find audible differences by using different configurations of line cords. Try it and see. It may not mean that one type of line cord is perfect for everything, or that it matters with your toaster, for example. Still, we have heard differences, so I have to take it into account.
Actually, if analyzed, power cords do have several characteristics that people often not think about. For example, they are RF antennas! Almost the same length as our auto antenna. Also, the current waveform driving most electronic equipment is NOT anything like a 50-60Hz sine wave. What does this mean?
It is possible to experiment and find audible differences by using different configurations of line cords. Try it and see. It may not mean that one type of line cord is perfect for everything, or that it matters with your toaster, for example. Still, we have heard differences, so I have to take it into account.
Hi,
Surely there must be ways to record it? Scope shots, other recording devices?
I know of at least one member who's recorded files on a before/after basis.
With all those members knowing how to manipulate PC recording software I'm pretty sure it can and has been done.
Yes, of course they are but a bunch of I won't say whats have decided that unless you put it as proof on a silver platter it just won't cut it with them.
Look at it this way, it's their loss not 👍ours.
Cheers,😉
Surely there must be ways to record it? Scope shots, other recording devices?
I know of at least one member who's recorded files on a before/after basis.
With all those members knowing how to manipulate PC recording software I'm pretty sure it can and has been done.
Yes, of course they are but a bunch of I won't say whats have decided that unless you put it as proof on a silver platter it just won't cut it with them.
Look at it this way, it's their loss not 👍ours.
Cheers,😉
If this were a boxing match the ref would stop it.
Of course you do have to admire the heart of certain combatants, even though their hardest hitting punch is...
...some guy no one has ever heard of made some power cords out of fish tank tubing and I didn't notice a difference...
...they refuse to go down.
Of course you do have to admire the heart of certain combatants, even though their hardest hitting punch is...
...some guy no one has ever heard of made some power cords out of fish tank tubing and I didn't notice a difference...
...they refuse to go down.
Bratislav said:
But isn't listening to music a very subjective experience and in some instances an attempt to create illusion? What's wrong if different cables try to create a similar effect of subjectivity and illusion? It's just that some folks go for it and some stay away from it by blocking their subjectivity sensors. I don't see any incosistency here😉
The problem starts when they try to talk one another into their way of percepting and thinking. It's simply not possible.
Power cords = antennas.....
I know of a local engineer who makes power cords with that property in mind. I'll give anyone the name that they are sold under to anyone who asks. (He doesn't pay me to advertise, so I see no need to broadcast it here. Although I have heard them, and there is a definite effect.)
Jocko
I know of a local engineer who makes power cords with that property in mind. I'll give anyone the name that they are sold under to anyone who asks. (He doesn't pay me to advertise, so I see no need to broadcast it here. Although I have heard them, and there is a definite effect.)
Jocko
john curl said:
the same can be said about the wiring inside the house. for you to hear a difference, you got to prove (i know, the magic word that sets some people really off) that the "superior" cable generates different RF signals, or no RF signals.
The simulation we had a while ago indicated that the RF content for most real-life systems is pretty small once over a few Khz. Most power supplies have an X capacitor on the mains side to further surpress it. so it is hard to those ultra-low frequency "RF" signals to generate any meaningful impact on a 1-2 meter long "RF antenna" - you can easily calculate the antenna size for a 10Khz EM signal. and please let me assure you that it is a lot longer than a couple meters.
to help out on the discussion, here is what ESP has to say about cables.
http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm
I know that some of you are far more qualified than ESP is but it usually doesn't hurt to hear it from an alternative perspective.
http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm
I know that some of you are far more qualified than ESP is but it usually doesn't hurt to hear it from an alternative perspective.
Re😛ower cords = antennas.....
Hi,
If he doesn't at least pay for the bolognese plaster sauce then don't mention the name.😎
OTOH, RF interfence and externally radiated EMI are nicely suppressed by a simple twisted pair and a drain wire woven inbetween.
Naturally, in a capitalistic world you'd have to complicate this scam beyond comprehension for this is way too simple a solution.
Ciao,😉
Hi,
If he doesn't at least pay for the bolognese plaster sauce then don't mention the name.😎
OTOH, RF interfence and externally radiated EMI are nicely suppressed by a simple twisted pair and a drain wire woven inbetween.
Naturally, in a capitalistic world you'd have to complicate this scam beyond comprehension for this is way too simple a solution.
Ciao,😉
As Easy As Riding A Bike...........
Yes, thankyou John and Peter.
Millwood your ignorance of the subject is glaring, and tiresome in the extreme.
Some points that you need to understand are that you are in company of those who have done MUCH experimenting and listening to all manner of audio systems.
Included in this experience are things like swapping components in and out on the fly and noting subtle differences.
It is through this learning to discriminate fine differences that listening skills are practiced and thereby enhanced.
Another thing that is learned by experience is the ability to reliably mentally eliminate the price-tag or reputation factor when listening to components, cables or equipment.
There has been comment about 'thinking' that you heard a difference.
If you are able to temporarily eliminate (ignore) all other factors in your life, and just closely listen, you ought to be able to pick up on fine sonic differences in A/B testing.
The first times that you encounter obscure differences is to doubt yourself because of previous conditioning and belief systems.
With further practice one learns to believe one's own ears and become more discriminating in the process, and even then start to doubt belief systems.
With sufficient repetition one's listening skill become completely reliable and second nature.
Millwood, JC gives listening test results AND electrical reasons that Power Cords may influence system sonics, and further that different PC's may or may not influence in a sonically pleasing way.
I feel that you require much more experience in audio generally and in detail - once you have done this thoroughly you will then likely achieve a higher level of understanding and will likely find yourself agreeing with concepts that are at present so foreign to you.
Eric.
john curl said:
Yes, thankyou John and Peter.
Millwood your ignorance of the subject is glaring, and tiresome in the extreme.
Some points that you need to understand are that you are in company of those who have done MUCH experimenting and listening to all manner of audio systems.
Included in this experience are things like swapping components in and out on the fly and noting subtle differences.
It is through this learning to discriminate fine differences that listening skills are practiced and thereby enhanced.
Another thing that is learned by experience is the ability to reliably mentally eliminate the price-tag or reputation factor when listening to components, cables or equipment.
There has been comment about 'thinking' that you heard a difference.
If you are able to temporarily eliminate (ignore) all other factors in your life, and just closely listen, you ought to be able to pick up on fine sonic differences in A/B testing.
The first times that you encounter obscure differences is to doubt yourself because of previous conditioning and belief systems.
With further practice one learns to believe one's own ears and become more discriminating in the process, and even then start to doubt belief systems.
With sufficient repetition one's listening skill become completely reliable and second nature.
Millwood, JC gives listening test results AND electrical reasons that Power Cords may influence system sonics, and further that different PC's may or may not influence in a sonically pleasing way.
I feel that you require much more experience in audio generally and in detail - once you have done this thoroughly you will then likely achieve a higher level of understanding and will likely find yourself agreeing with concepts that are at present so foreign to you.
Eric.
millwood said:
You should also know that ESP stands for 'extra sensory perception'. This term wasn't created without a reason.
Regarding your other, deleted post, it was simply out of line, for somebody being under moderation. I hope you don't take it personally.
My mindset on how much such things affect the sound wavers. Recently, I've been in the such things make no difference. However, because I have one, I connected up a large (~25 pound) torroidal isolation transformer to the AC input of my system (not expensive mind you). The first thing I noticed was that if my ear is next to this box, I can hear a buzzing. So, I thought that all things equal, I'll probably remove this (though the surge protection is good). Again, I was going on my normal other things (with my these things don't really work mentality). That is to say I expected zero difference. And I don't know, maybe there is something going on subconscious, but it seems noticeably better (as I had hoped that it would sound when I purchased it). This Yahama minisystem seems to sound (well I'll spare everyone the adjectives). When I have time, I'll try some ABX tests (with my wife as a volunteer). However, I agree, though in principle ABX should be definitive, I think that it really is harder, because your ear/mind has difficulty finding a reference. It may hear a difference, but it's difficult to tell what that difference is. However, it seems to me that with the difference that I seem to really notice, it shouldn't be hard to say which is which...
JF
JF
Peter Daniel said:
I don't take it personally, as long as you understand my reason why I didn't ask you for proof on your statement.
Re: As Easy As Riding A Bike...........
there is no money to be made in "may", or "may not". For every reason John had quoted here, i can quote 10 reasons why the guy's lawn mower two continents over can make your system sound bad.
mrfeedback said:
there is no money to be made in "may", or "may not". For every reason John had quoted here, i can quote 10 reasons why the guy's lawn mower two continents over can make your system sound bad.
I understand and it's fine with me. I don't see a reason for PC to create problems between old friends.
john curl said:
Apples and oranges. The antennas typically used for cars are whip antennas. A power cord would be a loop antenna so just because it's length is similar to that of a car antenna, doesn't mean it will behave like a car antenna. It's a different kind of antenna.
And while the power cord's length is approximately that of a car antenna (though again that's irrelevant since it's not a whip atnenna) the loop itself is quite large. Ultimately the loop's length extends from the power transformer in the equipment to the power transformer on the utility pole.
An unterminated input jack would be more akin to a whip antenna.
It means that the current will have harmonic components above 50-60 Hz.
There are also issues of leakage currents as well which can add noise to the system. So it's not as if power cords can't have ANY effect on a system. I think what some seem to be saying is that while a power cord can add noise to the system, they don't see how it can cause signal distortion.
se
Anybody tried putting one of those clip-on ferrite RF filter slugs onto their power cords ?.
I have, and it did make a difference, except that I do not find this difference sonically pleasing in experiments to date.
Eric.
I have, and it did make a difference, except that I do not find this difference sonically pleasing in experiments to date.
Eric.
Re: Re: As Easy As Riding A Bike...........
Listening to music is not about money.
You might have seious problems with being more credible than John (describing his cord performance) if you'd try to quote 10 reasons why the guy's lawn mower two continents over can make your system sound bad.
millwood said:
Listening to music is not about money.
You might have seious problems with being more credible than John (describing his cord performance) if you'd try to quote 10 reasons why the guy's lawn mower two continents over can make your system sound bad.
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