Anyone interested in teaming up on a 120 volt / 15 amp power conditioner / surge supressor project?
I am interested in building a top notch power conditioner. We have horribly dirty power where I live which is prone to smoke electronics. I will be building some nice solid state and tube amps in the next year and would like to have clean power in place before I start them.
I just acquired 6 beautiful capacitors. 4300uf, 400 vdc electrolytics. I thought they may be useful in this project. (I see they are $150 each in Newark so I would like to use them for something !) I also have a couple different MOV based surge supressors of various styles which may or may not be useful.
If anyone has a nice schematic of what I am looking for or something that could easily be modified, that would be great. If someone has extra parts to put towards this project, I would happily trade some of these capacitors towards parts that I could use.
Thanks, Brian
I am interested in building a top notch power conditioner. We have horribly dirty power where I live which is prone to smoke electronics. I will be building some nice solid state and tube amps in the next year and would like to have clean power in place before I start them.
I just acquired 6 beautiful capacitors. 4300uf, 400 vdc electrolytics. I thought they may be useful in this project. (I see they are $150 each in Newark so I would like to use them for something !) I also have a couple different MOV based surge supressors of various styles which may or may not be useful.
If anyone has a nice schematic of what I am looking for or something that could easily be modified, that would be great. If someone has extra parts to put towards this project, I would happily trade some of these capacitors towards parts that I could use.
Thanks, Brian
Let me also suggest balanced power
I have had a lot of success running as much of my system as possible (at least the front end stuff) on balanced power. Found a 1KVa toroidal transformer (in a nice enclosure) used for some hospital application, and was able to rewire it for 115 input and 115 center tapped output, so I could ground the secondary center tap and feed "balanced 115" out. Seemed to reduce the "grunge" considerably.
Whatever you do, PLEASE be VERY CAREFUL from an electrical safety perspective and fuse the final product LOCALLY. May want to look up the applicable electrical codes.
Charles
I have had a lot of success running as much of my system as possible (at least the front end stuff) on balanced power. Found a 1KVa toroidal transformer (in a nice enclosure) used for some hospital application, and was able to rewire it for 115 input and 115 center tapped output, so I could ground the secondary center tap and feed "balanced 115" out. Seemed to reduce the "grunge" considerably.
Whatever you do, PLEASE be VERY CAREFUL from an electrical safety perspective and fuse the final product LOCALLY. May want to look up the applicable electrical codes.
Charles
Sola constant voltage transformers are great. The protect against lightning, too. Used ones have worn out electrolytic caps, used in reshaping the output. Junk+new caps = bliss. Way higher MBTF than those toy Uninterruptable PowerSupplies's the company tried to put on the printers. However they don't work against actual dropout. I've got several removed from factory at tearout day, but haven't invested in caps yet. 15 A version is pretty expensive and heavy, buying what you want in watts is a better deal. You won't need a metal oxide surge supressor with one of these.
We used some ferroresonant transformers (or constant voltage transformer) at test stands on the factory floor. I wouldn't want one in the house, they run hot with lots of mechanical buzz. They also have a sweet spot load wise. We had to add power resistors on one stand to make the transformer happy.
Long before any solution is possible, first the problem must be defined. And with numbers. For example, which anomaly do you want to cure? Power factor, noise spikes, floating ground, harmonics, reversed polarity, ground loops, EMI/EMC/RFI, high voltage, low voltage, high current transients, or longitudinal or common mode spikes - to name only a few.
Meanwhile, 1970 international design standards defined 120 volt electronics withstand 600 volt transients without damage. Today's electronics are even more robust. Sometimes a solution attached adjacent to electronics can bypass (compromise) superior protection already provided by a PSU.
Ideal power for all electronics is when AC voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Protection from that anomaly means finding and fixing (without delay) a wiring problem that is also a motorized appliance and a human safety threat. Another example of defining a problem before designing a solution.
But again, first define the anomaly, quantitatively, before curing it.
I was thinking something more like this:
Home Theater Reference HTPS 7000 MKII PowerSource with Dual Balanced Pure Power™ and Clean Power™ Stage 5
Home Theater Reference HTPS 7000 MKII PowerSource with Dual Balanced Pure Power™ and Clean Power™ Stage 5
It's an expensive looking box from Monster. But what does it do? If it does what you want, then it says so with numbers. What does it do? Plenty of expensive looking words. None say anything quantitative.
Listed were anomalies that might be solved. Which one does that Monster address? Its sales brochure does not say. To answer technical questions means manufacturer specifications. Which electrical anomaly must be cured by how much? That sales brochure does not discuss any electrical anomaly. Has many expensive words that have no electrical significance. What anomaly do you need to solve?
Thanks for everyone's input and suggestions. I ahve a rough idea of what I want to build. Maybe all wont see the point in building it, but I want to build one. If for nothing else than just to build it and use up a bunch of parts that I have lying around. So with that said, if anyone would like to join in on this project, post here or PM me.
Thanks, Brian
Thanks, Brian
Real solution to dirty power is proper design of Power Supplies and Filtration. Power in my area looks like a square wave at best and spikes everytime the wind blows.
CVT's work but as was said before they need to be loaded properly and you DON'T want them in your listening area unless youe like to to listen to your power.
CVT's work but as was said before they need to be loaded properly and you DON'T want them in your listening area unless youe like to to listen to your power.
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A good surge protection schematic and theorie
AC Power filter and phone line filter (homemade circuit breaker) | Your Electronics Open Source
AC Power filter and phone line filter (homemade circuit breaker) | Your Electronics Open Source
That solution is already inside electronic appliances. Is one of many reasons why electronics make transients only noise.
Another completely different anomaly is a surge. A surge will simply blow right through that 'protector' circuit. MOVs in that protector can see no voltage as a surge is creating thousands of volts inside the appliance. How can that be? Well, the statement is correct. If not understood, then basic electronic concepts must be learned.
So, what anomaly does that schematic solve? Listed were many anomalies. Which ones on that list (or others) does that circuit solve? A question that is answered with numbers. A recommendation without defining 'what' is solved is also how many promote scams.
What that schematic does was standard inside electronic appliances even before the first IBM PC existed. A transient at thousands of volts can also result in no voltage on the MOV RV2. Once understood, only then can a solution be recommended.
Chances are that $500 Monster product is marketing the same schematic. Why such a massive difference between parts cost and its retail price? Monster has a long history of marketing similar products with obscene profit margins. Because so many (if not most) of us judge quality by its price. Not by first learning the simple science. Or by ignoring manufacturer spec numbers.
If you are willing to do some research
DIY Power "conditioners" and surge protectors have been covered extensively in certain Audioasylum threads (don't remember which).
Whatever you do PLEASE be careful and respect what line current and voltage can do to you.
Ferro-resonant transformers maintain constant voltage by modifying the 60hz sine waveshape. In effect they are CREATING distortion. I certainly don't advocate using them as any kind of solution to your "problem"
Charles
DIY Power "conditioners" and surge protectors have been covered extensively in certain Audioasylum threads (don't remember which).
Whatever you do PLEASE be careful and respect what line current and voltage can do to you.
Ferro-resonant transformers maintain constant voltage by modifying the 60hz sine waveshape. In effect they are CREATING distortion. I certainly don't advocate using them as any kind of solution to your "problem"
Charles
A strawman is a mythical problem often invented to justify an expensive solution with obscene profits. Normal voltage for all electronics is when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. How often does your voltage drop that low? Then why does anyone need a ferro-resonant transformer? Why solve a problem that does not exist? Because so many are only educated by advertising, hearsay, fear, and retail salesmen.
Distorted waveform from a ferro-resonant transformer is also irrelevant to all electronics. What do electronics do to AC mains electricity? First makes that electricity even 'dirtier'. To make a cleanest and most stable, low voltage DC, its power supply first converts 120 volt AC mains power to radio wave spikes well exceeding 300 volts. Makes 'cleanest' or 'dirtiest' AC power into some of the 'dirtiest' inside a house. What do miracle boxes on AC mains do? Many are only profit centers.
Any solution that would 'clean' AC mains is completely undone by spikes and surges intentionally created inside electronics.
Ferro-resonant transformers, like most miracle boxes, are recommended when a consumer forgets to first define a problem. So many consumers all but want to be scammed. So Monster may sell a $10 circuit (cited by Marcelinho) inside an expensive looking box for almost $500. Monster knows the naive will use price, hearsay, wild speculation, and advertising to claim ‘quality’.
Generally, if Monster is selling an equivalent product, then all those products are probably scams.
First thing any informed consumer does - learn manufacturer spec numbers. No numbers here is a first indication that a recommendation may be bogus. We all should have learned that from history – ie Saddam’s WMDs. Does not matter how long or extensive any discussion is. Any recommendation that does not first define the problem and does not provide numbers is suspect.
It was in a first paragraph: Long before any solution is possible, first the problem must be defined. And with numbers.
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Seems my thread has been hijacked. Was supposed to be for people who wanted to build a power conditioner (I thought that was evident by the thread title). Seems to have turned into an opinion-fest. Opinions are great, just not real useful to me.
Found good help on an electronics forum.
Done with this thread.
Found good help on an electronics forum.
Done with this thread.
How about putting this forward as the " problem"
"How can I get a perfect 60hz sine wave at 120V to all my audio gear?" I think this would cover all above said anomalies in one go.
"How can I get a perfect 60hz sine wave at 120V to all my audio gear?" I think this would cover all above said anomalies in one go.
No line conditioner solves all anomalies. "Long before any solution is possible, first the problem must be defined. And with numbers."
"Listed were anomalies that might be solved." But none were selected. How does one design something for a problem that does not exist and is not defined?
Would it be possible to create a simple series LC resonant filter to pass 60 Hz and another parallel LC filter to shunt all harmonics (or a combination of both)? If it is possible, what would be the best place of such a circuit: the primary or the secondary of the mains transformer?
Size of a passive filter would be many tens of kilograms or larger. Massive. Extremely expensive. Would only address a few of the listed anomalies. And not do much of what is already done better inside most electronics.
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