Bah, the audiophiles are like frenchs, englischs, deutschs or engineers or even popes ! Y'en a des biens ! 🙂
Ahaha yes but this image you know, the guys buying only boring easy-listening jazz records because "they are well recorded", I mean I am an audiophile if you follow the definition, but audiophiles are seen often as a bunch of lunatics who spend more on their cables than on their house...
Of course y'en a des biens 😉
I understand, I find myself the reccordings of Diana Krall very borring... sometimes you can't flee when someone playback a cd from her to test his hifi.... so I dream in these particular moments to have caps to putt it in my ears... wax caps of course !
Jazz is like engineering : necessary but not sufisant...
Jazz is like engineering : necessary but not sufisant...
Last edited:
I find myself somewhere in the middle.
my system is very atypic; most "audiophiles" would see my speakers and think "pouahh, PA speakers - wich they are not, but could be, and have been used as such in their past, and often I have parties at home and bring police to the front door, yet on normal days, they're -for me, at my humble level- the most magnificient tool to listen music and hear differences in cables or electronics; i know their sound so well that if anything is changed - like if my someone cleaned the floor and moved a speaker a few inches, I will hear it even before I see it, it will hurt my ears...
And then I come here, asking for opinions, and I'm being laughed at by ...engineers because I hear differences between caps, differences that are not subtle! and I'm being talked down as someone who speaks "without knowing". I'm a fool who buys capacitors because of their name.
but I know where I stand, I know some things about audio we can't really explain by numbers yet, and I accept it.
my system is very atypic; most "audiophiles" would see my speakers and think "pouahh, PA speakers - wich they are not, but could be, and have been used as such in their past, and often I have parties at home and bring police to the front door, yet on normal days, they're -for me, at my humble level- the most magnificient tool to listen music and hear differences in cables or electronics; i know their sound so well that if anything is changed - like if my someone cleaned the floor and moved a speaker a few inches, I will hear it even before I see it, it will hurt my ears...
And then I come here, asking for opinions, and I'm being laughed at by ...engineers because I hear differences between caps, differences that are not subtle! and I'm being talked down as someone who speaks "without knowing". I'm a fool who buys capacitors because of their name.
but I know where I stand, I know some things about audio we can't really explain by numbers yet, and I accept it.
Not objective, just take an analytical engineering attitude towards what is a mainly engineering task...
WE are reproducing the music someone else has written and mixed... preferably without adding anything, we are not creating instruments to be played, but a playback system to reproduce faithfully the source material...
Cable differences can be measured but are at a level so low aren't audible... Unless the cable is way off spec.
WE are reproducing the music someone else has written and mixed... preferably without adding anything, we are not creating instruments to be played, but a playback system to reproduce faithfully the source material...
Cable differences can be measured but are at a level so low aren't audible... Unless the cable is way off spec.
Remember that we also hear sound differences in our systems because the power condition differs between day and evening or because our mind and our senses are at different levels of fatigue - just to mention a two objective factors influencing different listening experiences.
Whether your impressions are realistic or hyperbolical is up to you, but it is always useful to benchmark them with opinions on this forum. There is an incredible mass of knowledge and experience accumulated here and you should be ready to at least consider them and measure your results against the already existing knowledge about it.
Yep, wisely said Willi Studer! It's of course both objective because law of electronics + subjective as a perception which is not as passive we would like to be.
We can't approach of the system of the reccording enginner without having the same stuffs and the same listening room than him : so all is after a question of adaptation & compensation for the subjective hifi stuffs of the listener, his subjective listening room and subjective taste (but if he listen often true acoustical instruments it has a not too bad reference despite the limited memory of ears with some atributes of the sounds).
Factories technicians trie to make a "neutral" stuff but unluckilly if you put all the neutral stuffs together it pproach less the reality most of the time; rare case are when the technicians developp from A to Z the whole hifi sytem...
We don't know yet to measure the musicality (noise floor and harmonics are not enough but necessary imho)... also because the music is a brain interpretation, also because distorsion or odd harmonics can be more conform to the reality with some instruments and notes. The problem is of course not the measurement but to know if we know all what has to be measured... The best engineers in Hifi adds to the logical their experience to allow the good stuff of the markett or their own design to sound good ! I like for instance the Abraxalito member work because he tries a lot of typologoies bu always in an enginneering spirit behind.
If I had for instance Marce as a neighbourg, I will force him to make a pcb from scratch for the ad1862 or TDA 1541 chip (so no wine, just Tea but eventually some progressive rock during the development phase) as he helped already for the ad1862 pcb of Painkiller member who is a very sympathetic member as well !
Ah Marce, you work too much at your non audio daily job 🙂, when you will be retired I will be definitly deaf (or maybe death shorted by a cap - luckilly I don't touch tubes and smps layouts 😉 ) ! .... faulty "Camembert electrique" !
We can't approach of the system of the reccording enginner without having the same stuffs and the same listening room than him : so all is after a question of adaptation & compensation for the subjective hifi stuffs of the listener, his subjective listening room and subjective taste (but if he listen often true acoustical instruments it has a not too bad reference despite the limited memory of ears with some atributes of the sounds).
Factories technicians trie to make a "neutral" stuff but unluckilly if you put all the neutral stuffs together it pproach less the reality most of the time; rare case are when the technicians developp from A to Z the whole hifi sytem...
We don't know yet to measure the musicality (noise floor and harmonics are not enough but necessary imho)... also because the music is a brain interpretation, also because distorsion or odd harmonics can be more conform to the reality with some instruments and notes. The problem is of course not the measurement but to know if we know all what has to be measured... The best engineers in Hifi adds to the logical their experience to allow the good stuff of the markett or their own design to sound good ! I like for instance the Abraxalito member work because he tries a lot of typologoies bu always in an enginneering spirit behind.
If I had for instance Marce as a neighbourg, I will force him to make a pcb from scratch for the ad1862 or TDA 1541 chip (so no wine, just Tea but eventually some progressive rock during the development phase) as he helped already for the ad1862 pcb of Painkiller member who is a very sympathetic member as well !
Ah Marce, you work too much at your non audio daily job 🙂, when you will be retired I will be definitly deaf (or maybe death shorted by a cap - luckilly I don't touch tubes and smps layouts 😉 ) ! .... faulty "Camembert electrique" !
Last edited:
I still find it hard to believe that such cables are still taken seriously, when both theory and experiment show that they cannot improve a good (i.e. well-engineered) system and on a bad system they can at best act as crude tone controls or interference introducers. However, life has taught me that there is no lower bound to ignorance and no upper bound to gullibility.KanedaK said:
To any competent engineer that is evidence that your system is poorly engineered; maybe it has sources with high output impedance? That would make your cables into crude tone controls.
Capacitors and cables are where much of the voodoo/snake oil resides. After all, most people don't understand circuits well enough to introduce nonsense elsewhere.
Why cant I recreate such effects when wiring other analogue digital systems such as medical say or a vehicle communications system, the analogue and digital get through quite happily? Same with cables look around there are measurements of many cables showing the slight differences with correctly engineered cables, these differences as said are below the level of perception...
Last edited:
Do not, for a minute, believe that what you are doing is wrong, or that it does not have a merit. I use different interconnects and power cables to fine tune the end-result when I do modifications. 100mm long piece of an annealed silver ribbon, replacing copper multi-litz hook-up wire, will make huge difference. That is 100 mm only !!
Nick
Some proof and measurements would be nice instead of the usual anecdotes...
Lets have a real basis for comparing cables, the differences will be easily measured if they are audible...
Why is it only in audio we get this mystique round cables? I am sure the same physics applies to audio electronics as it does to all other fields of electronics.
Half the stuff published by boutique cable manufacturers is pure BS the rest is just very dubious.
Lets have a real basis for comparing cables, the differences will be easily measured if they are audible...
Why is it only in audio we get this mystique round cables? I am sure the same physics applies to audio electronics as it does to all other fields of electronics.
Half the stuff published by boutique cable manufacturers is pure BS the rest is just very dubious.
Sure : many links on Google : The Naked Truth about Speaker-Cables (Internet saved the audiophiles)
This is where it becomes schocking when you see the price of these cables : more expensive than some speakers, amps, etc ! It's often better to change one your hardware (speaker, amps, source, room, reccording...) than the interlinks for a real improvement... Marketing says to you you choosed well your hardware but you have to spend a lot to interconnect them for they work "together".... ahahahaha ! (the invisible missing link... which can be measured indeed, although no-one found a general rule to help to choose the cable but the simpliest as capacitance, resistivity. And here is where the Vodoo comes : it can be measured, but there are so much factors than it's not easy to identify the solution for instance if we speak about cables ! It's easier on some other departement of electronics laws : noise floor, harmonics,...
It's true different cable can give on some hifi different results, but this simple commodotie should cost Nothing, at least in relation to the other industrial process which are more expensive like building a cd player with mechanical parts, guarantee, heavy shipment (although some cables are more heavier than I am !)... but no it's about hobby and aesthetic (be it real by chance, nocebo or placebo about the change)... it becomes expensive like some Watch, cars, cloths, mistress, brands...
As says Marce, when we found the origin is giving always the same effect and we can identify the miss to predict the solution which can be checked by measurement : it's ok, we are in the concrete world.
The only problem I see and which is at the origin of such forums is Hifi links come from different manufacters and not always give a good result together. Sometimes we can measure it as the missing link is evident, sometimes it's harder and have different origins from the hardware, to the listening room, with the brain interpretation of the listener right in the middle (by brain I mean from aesthic taste to believing, and also bad analysis of the missing link, be it technical as well... or not) !
All what is loving the merchants !
When I read all those Hifi reviews with no more attention than it deserves, I come to dream than manufacters should compete not for standalone hardware, but for complete Hifi system from source to the speakers, including all the links as it's a competition ! The only difference left would be the reviewer, his listening room, and the ads departement in his conclusion.... 🙂.... a problem left ? Ah yes the quality of the reccording and mixing... oh no, not another Loudness, yet...
modest tweaking have their limits and rarely can improve a bad design or at the margin; it can adapt a good design by compensation because all the links of the whole Hifi system, room included (like could do a DRC for instance)... Sometimes the correction given can be good enough to make the whole more pleasant at the ear than befor or more conform to the listener tastes : and also that can be measured. IMHO! It's also often usefull if you have musicians around you, and than you are not alone to judge, and you have real musical culture (unpluged live events...)
This is where it becomes schocking when you see the price of these cables : more expensive than some speakers, amps, etc ! It's often better to change one your hardware (speaker, amps, source, room, reccording...) than the interlinks for a real improvement... Marketing says to you you choosed well your hardware but you have to spend a lot to interconnect them for they work "together".... ahahahaha ! (the invisible missing link... which can be measured indeed, although no-one found a general rule to help to choose the cable but the simpliest as capacitance, resistivity. And here is where the Vodoo comes : it can be measured, but there are so much factors than it's not easy to identify the solution for instance if we speak about cables ! It's easier on some other departement of electronics laws : noise floor, harmonics,...
It's true different cable can give on some hifi different results, but this simple commodotie should cost Nothing, at least in relation to the other industrial process which are more expensive like building a cd player with mechanical parts, guarantee, heavy shipment (although some cables are more heavier than I am !)... but no it's about hobby and aesthetic (be it real by chance, nocebo or placebo about the change)... it becomes expensive like some Watch, cars, cloths, mistress, brands...
As says Marce, when we found the origin is giving always the same effect and we can identify the miss to predict the solution which can be checked by measurement : it's ok, we are in the concrete world.
The only problem I see and which is at the origin of such forums is Hifi links come from different manufacters and not always give a good result together. Sometimes we can measure it as the missing link is evident, sometimes it's harder and have different origins from the hardware, to the listening room, with the brain interpretation of the listener right in the middle (by brain I mean from aesthic taste to believing, and also bad analysis of the missing link, be it technical as well... or not) !
All what is loving the merchants !
When I read all those Hifi reviews with no more attention than it deserves, I come to dream than manufacters should compete not for standalone hardware, but for complete Hifi system from source to the speakers, including all the links as it's a competition ! The only difference left would be the reviewer, his listening room, and the ads departement in his conclusion.... 🙂.... a problem left ? Ah yes the quality of the reccording and mixing... oh no, not another Loudness, yet...
modest tweaking have their limits and rarely can improve a bad design or at the margin; it can adapt a good design by compensation because all the links of the whole Hifi system, room included (like could do a DRC for instance)... Sometimes the correction given can be good enough to make the whole more pleasant at the ear than befor or more conform to the listener tastes : and also that can be measured. IMHO! It's also often usefull if you have musicians around you, and than you are not alone to judge, and you have real musical culture (unpluged live events...)
Last edited:
For about things elsewhere, I've heard about Sorbothane feet (the bigger kind) here on page 9 (or is it 10):
http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_21_r.pdf
But I disagree that this is necessarily "evidence that your system is poorly engineered." That may well be, but if these different cables and such were compared with some good (and here comes a topic that's verboten on many audio/hifi forums!) double-blind ABX tests, one could rather quickly find out whether it's the equipment or the perception of the sound that has changed.
To demonstrate the problem of perception there's this, specifically the last post #14, that helps explain (or at least demonstrate) how how people can hear differences such as copper vs. silver wire:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-...logic-fake-rack-gear-there-anything-else.html
Perhaps the best way to realize how such perceptions can happen is to have had it happen experientially to yourself: go to your control amplifier, make some small tone control changes until you're happy with the sound, then notice that the tone defeat switch is on, and turn each tone control to both ends of its range to verify that it actually has no affect on the sound. Most audio engineers have done lots of knob turning and have had such things happen to themselves. It's like an optical illusion or a magic trick, but it happens with what you hear.
Last edited:
Partial explanation... or short cut if you prefer
The change exist, it can be better at ear, worse, or can be not hearable ! Works only on your system, works also for some other systems or not, waste them or not, etc... Of course the little change is at the margin in relation to the engineered device, no one is saying the oposite here !
When it becomes snake oils is saying such caps gives always such sound, etc! the cable, the cap, nore the stuff is making music by it's own ! In fact even air vibration is not music but what the brain interprets... here is the subjectivity and where culture can enter (I mean by culture : aesthetic perception). Some engineering are more predictable than others for instance some caps model at some critical place in the device, and here a less good result can be more musical like a pleasant distorsion or more or less H2 for instance (always compensation between links : ears don't identify a cap or a hardware, they just have the perception of the final result as a whole : air vibration + interpretation ! And here a tweak can change a variable.
A technician for instance knows what a cap works, how it has resonance with a resistor... but there are so much trade offs which are time consuming to find, as the non predictible result in a whole system with stranger hardwares (the other brands)... than there is always a place to improvement (be it cable or caps or more efficient tweakings)...
It is more exact to say than the good engineering is the Paramount factor in the way to make sound reproduction.
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.