For a while I've been using Virtual Machines for my audio/media, but (unsurprisingly) things often work better or more easily if run on the main/host system. So I'm going to set up an actual/real machine instead: software crossovers and equalisation, playing local and internet-based audio and films plus browser content.
More controversially (for me) I'm thinking of moving back to MS Windows for it. Increasingly, sources include online/streaming services, whose linux apps might be second-rate or non existent, and their browser-based alternatives less functional (there is 'wine' but again, for a dedicated machine things would be better running natively). TBH I don't really like Windows; the phoning home, push updates, bloat and less control of one's own PC, but it would probably be acceptable for a hobby machine.
It looks like I could still use applications like CamillaDSP and REW on windows. What other EQ/DSP/crossover type apps should I consider? Are there any audio challenges with windows that I need to know about?
Thanks,
Kev
More controversially (for me) I'm thinking of moving back to MS Windows for it. Increasingly, sources include online/streaming services, whose linux apps might be second-rate or non existent, and their browser-based alternatives less functional (there is 'wine' but again, for a dedicated machine things would be better running natively). TBH I don't really like Windows; the phoning home, push updates, bloat and less control of one's own PC, but it would probably be acceptable for a hobby machine.
It looks like I could still use applications like CamillaDSP and REW on windows. What other EQ/DSP/crossover type apps should I consider? Are there any audio challenges with windows that I need to know about?
Thanks,
Kev
Windows works well:
- If you don't connect to the internet (no offence).
- If you have all the required drivers for all the hardware (sound/video card etc.) with you.
- If you defragment your drive regularly (not app to SSD) and use cleanup software like CCleaner.
- If you maintain the same installation of windows (no updates), even if newer versions are available.
- If Windows is installed on a separate partition (say C:\) that is not used for anything else.
I'm reasonably familiar with windows itself (up to v10 anyway). I just haven't used it very recently for audio applications, especially DSP type things. It will be connected to the internet, so it will be a current version getting security updates (even if they break it occasionally).
I know what you mean. Been there, done that. After a while I converged to a setup that does not use any music/file browsing on my "real" computer anymore. Since a few years it's all Roon + RoPieee for me, which works perfectly (not only) on Linux behind the scenes. The GUI / frontend is on my mobile phone or tablet. I feel the Roon approach is os much nicer and more convenient than using a "real" computer to deal with music playback. I can even use a VPN from my office/workplace into my private/home network to use my Roon stuff at work.
Thanks, that is a very useful reminder that there are alternatives, which might well be more elegant than what I was planning.
I am interested in roon, it is quite appealing for music discovery and related content, which could cut out a lot of manual web-searching that I always end up doing. I didn't go there because on Linux it recommends/prefers running as root, which I won't accept on my main/host PC. In fact I don't want most/any hobby/music/media apps and protocols running on my main PC. But a separate little machine would be okay.
In the past I've used volumio, and various methods of server/control-point/renderer. It was a bit complicated to set up and more devices to maintain but quite a nice way to do things, so I could go back again, maybe with something more powerful than a Pi though. That kind of thing, or even just network or USB streaming to a renderer might offer potential for still using a VM (edit: windows or otherwise) yet involving hardware where wanted.
I suppose that I need to decide how dedicated/restricted I can accept the system being. Currently I play quite a lot of content just in general web-browsers (e.g. as I watch accompanying video), which many pre-rolled audio OSs or dedicated audio applications don't really accommodate, so I might need to make my own combination.
Thanks again,
Kev
I am interested in roon, it is quite appealing for music discovery and related content, which could cut out a lot of manual web-searching that I always end up doing. I didn't go there because on Linux it recommends/prefers running as root, which I won't accept on my main/host PC. In fact I don't want most/any hobby/music/media apps and protocols running on my main PC. But a separate little machine would be okay.
In the past I've used volumio, and various methods of server/control-point/renderer. It was a bit complicated to set up and more devices to maintain but quite a nice way to do things, so I could go back again, maybe with something more powerful than a Pi though. That kind of thing, or even just network or USB streaming to a renderer might offer potential for still using a VM (edit: windows or otherwise) yet involving hardware where wanted.
I suppose that I need to decide how dedicated/restricted I can accept the system being. Currently I play quite a lot of content just in general web-browsers (e.g. as I watch accompanying video), which many pre-rolled audio OSs or dedicated audio applications don't really accommodate, so I might need to make my own combination.
Thanks again,
Kev
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You can run CamillaDSP fine on Windows. But you can also run it on a Pi4 or 5 in usb gadget mode. That's how I run my main system. The computer runs plain Windows, and the dsp runs on a separate pi that sits in between the computer and the dac. This way there is no need for anything extra installed on the windows machine, no virtual audio card, no dsp process that must be running etc, things just work. Quite nice since it's a system of whole family uses.
Thank you for the suggestions. I've not heard of those before, so will certainly investigate.
Thanks,
Kev
Thanks,
Kev
Thank you, Henrik. That is a strong possibility too, then! I tried the gadget mode previously with success, but only from Linux; I'd thought for some reason that Microsoft's implementation of it was broken, but clearly I'm wrong there.
Perhaps a USB pass-through to the Pi gadget would even allow a Virtual Machine to be used as the source. Which could run windows or roon etc etc as wished without needing a separate machine. Though that would depend on there not being any surprises caused by the VM for whatever software was running; I've been caught out before by things I'd not anticipated, due to lack of real hardware access.
Thanks again,
Kev
That used to be true, the gadget presented itself as a bit of a weird device that windows didn't accept. That has been fixed in the Linux kernel, don't remember exactly when but something like a year or two ago.
I am running my Roon Core on an old and weak Fitlet 2 with Debian Linux, works perfectly fine. The Fitlet sits in the basement and does Roon stuff only, which makes life easy. Decoupling the music playback from a dedicated computer was a great decision for our every-day music listening in the house. We currently have 7 endpoints ("playback devices"), all done with RPi 2 and 3. It is surprisingly easy to set up and manage.
Thanks again. Yes, i too like the separation in some respects; dedicated devices for dedicated purposes can certainly be more efficient and better optimised. I just need to decide if my use-case can fit into that model, or if a different one might suit it better.
Oddly it is my interest in using web-browsers as one of the sources that is most taxing. They were once just another small application, but now half the world seems to come via them. I'm not limited to old or weak hardware, but many/most dedicated music or media applications won't offer this as one of their sources.
Not sure how roon would work with this; maybe it could handle browser audio?
For music alone, I think roon would be a big benefit to me as a qobus user, since (as I've found) their own offerings are quite basic. Perhaps swapping to Tidal and Spotify (if ever they get lossless going) would be richer 'as is', and might avoid the double subscription costs. I have no personal experience, but I heard Tidal can even do video. But I quite like qobuz as a service and roon probably offers richer related content than any other, so maybe paying for both could still be a good choice.
Oddly it is my interest in using web-browsers as one of the sources that is most taxing. They were once just another small application, but now half the world seems to come via them. I'm not limited to old or weak hardware, but many/most dedicated music or media applications won't offer this as one of their sources.
Not sure how roon would work with this; maybe it could handle browser audio?
For music alone, I think roon would be a big benefit to me as a qobus user, since (as I've found) their own offerings are quite basic. Perhaps swapping to Tidal and Spotify (if ever they get lossless going) would be richer 'as is', and might avoid the double subscription costs. I have no personal experience, but I heard Tidal can even do video. But I quite like qobuz as a service and roon probably offers richer related content than any other, so maybe paying for both could still be a good choice.
Thanks again, Henrik. I shall try it then!
I looked back at why I originally dropped the VM-to-gadget method. The external 'gadget' had been a way for me to overcome loopbacks in the VM having no access to a proper hardware clock. The gadget approach worked well. But I then found that my 'audio' VM itself was oddly affected by unrelated activity on other VMs or QEMU/KVM; it would lose its volume settings - go suddenly 'very' loud in most cases.
Of course this shouldn't happen but it did; maybe a consequence (or bug) of the audio-out-to-host stuff (spice?) that I wasn't even using with USB-pass-through. In retrospect, I should have tested by uninstalling that. Maybe it wouldn't affect a windows VM anyway. So, much to test, and all might be well, if it works out. Certainly the most flexible and intuitive option of all those I'm considering, so i hope it does.
Thanks again,
Kev
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I use windows for streaming music to my headphone system with Amazon music. I have zero complaints, it always works well. For EQ I use EQ APO with the peace eq interface. Still on windows 10 on that machine, getting accustomed to windows 11 on another.
The only two reasons why I'd ever stay on Windows is games and measurement / audio control software like miniDSP. REW is, AFAIK, fully portable among systems though so you should have no problems. Personally I wish the world was Linux so I could pick my own UI independently of whatever the corporate pencil pushers think I want.
The Raspberry Pi 5 is an amazing amount of computer power for not much money. I have one that I intend to install Moode on.
A non-Windows alternative could be an older Mac mini. I picked up a couple of 2012 vintage ones for $50/each at my local eWaste recycler. In the past I've run Reaper with ReaEQ for EQ. I ran this on the 2010 MacBook Pro that still serves as my music machine.
But if Windows is the choice, I'd install the latest and make sure to enable automatic updates.
Tom
A non-Windows alternative could be an older Mac mini. I picked up a couple of 2012 vintage ones for $50/each at my local eWaste recycler. In the past I've run Reaper with ReaEQ for EQ. I ran this on the 2010 MacBook Pro that still serves as my music machine.
But if Windows is the choice, I'd install the latest and make sure to enable automatic updates.
Tom
Thanks everyone. I shall have to look at EQ-APO; another for the evaluation list!
Yes, I also prefer Linux, and will stay with it for my main computing. However, for music and media, times are changing towards content being hosted online and sadly very few (of the already small number) of decent streaming services provide well for the linux experience. I could of course get by, as i do now; especially if I paid extra for roon or limited myself to spotify or browser versions etc. But it is reaching the point where I'd prefer to have free choice of services and their native apps, as I will use them increasingly often and pay good money for them.
Mac would indeed be an alternative, not quite as popular but most services still seem to consider it. I haven't yet gone there because I don't really know it, and the hardware seems less common and/or more expensive than bog-standard PCs. But I do slightly prefer apple to microsoft so it could be worth the investment and learning-curve.
But anyway, it seems Windows is a viable option, which was the question here. But it has also made me think again about other options too, which I need to put more thought into, either in the way I would use windows or completely different solutions.
Yes, I also prefer Linux, and will stay with it for my main computing. However, for music and media, times are changing towards content being hosted online and sadly very few (of the already small number) of decent streaming services provide well for the linux experience. I could of course get by, as i do now; especially if I paid extra for roon or limited myself to spotify or browser versions etc. But it is reaching the point where I'd prefer to have free choice of services and their native apps, as I will use them increasingly often and pay good money for them.
Mac would indeed be an alternative, not quite as popular but most services still seem to consider it. I haven't yet gone there because I don't really know it, and the hardware seems less common and/or more expensive than bog-standard PCs. But I do slightly prefer apple to microsoft so it could be worth the investment and learning-curve.
But anyway, it seems Windows is a viable option, which was the question here. But it has also made me think again about other options too, which I need to put more thought into, either in the way I would use windows or completely different solutions.
I found the transition to OSX (now Mac OS) pretty easy, but there is some learning curve there for sure. If you're looking to see if Mac is for you, I'd recommend a used or refurbished mini.
Unlike most PCs you'll also find that the Mac is silent in operation. That's of value for an audio server.
Tom
Unlike most PCs you'll also find that the Mac is silent in operation. That's of value for an audio server.
Tom
Thanks again, Tom. Yes, I've been looking at them (on the net) since you mentioned it and they do appeal. It is definitely something I shall consider seriously if I decide to go for a dedicated machine.
My current PC took a lot of effort to make silent, and is quite big due to the passive CPU heatsink, but it is far more powerful than I'd need just for media. That alone is perhaps a good argument for getting dedicated smaller and more power-efficient hardware. Though I suppose in other ways it would be a shame not to use the main PC, since it is already there for free; it probably depends how I get on with the VM approach vs buying another machine. Pros and cons, as always.
My current PC took a lot of effort to make silent, and is quite big due to the passive CPU heatsink, but it is far more powerful than I'd need just for media. That alone is perhaps a good argument for getting dedicated smaller and more power-efficient hardware. Though I suppose in other ways it would be a shame not to use the main PC, since it is already there for free; it probably depends how I get on with the VM approach vs buying another machine. Pros and cons, as always.
Running DSP on a small machine that has USB operating in gadget mode is not limited to CamillaDSP. It's a great way in general to use this feature to create a DSP-DAC from a Pi or any other computer.