Hi all,
I have been thinking about a simple FET based circuit for use as a possible soft start mechanism and would appreciate your feedback on this design. Go easy on my as I am a definite noob. It is designed to bring the transformer up to voltage in several tens of seconds and can be seen in the attached pdf.
Essentially we have two back to back fets used as a bi directional solid state relay. It slowly turns on when supplied with 15v from a dedicated transformer. The turn on time is determined by the RC combo. I also need to devise a simple way to drain the cap on turn off, but that will be easy.
The only problems I can see with the circuit is a minor voltage drop and a little switching noise created when the mains cycle is between -0.6 and 0.6 volts due to switching of the recovery diodes.
So what do you think? Too noisy for use? Too lossy? I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Greg.
I have been thinking about a simple FET based circuit for use as a possible soft start mechanism and would appreciate your feedback on this design. Go easy on my as I am a definite noob. It is designed to bring the transformer up to voltage in several tens of seconds and can be seen in the attached pdf.
Essentially we have two back to back fets used as a bi directional solid state relay. It slowly turns on when supplied with 15v from a dedicated transformer. The turn on time is determined by the RC combo. I also need to devise a simple way to drain the cap on turn off, but that will be easy.
The only problems I can see with the circuit is a minor voltage drop and a little switching noise created when the mains cycle is between -0.6 and 0.6 volts due to switching of the recovery diodes.
So what do you think? Too noisy for use? Too lossy? I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Greg.
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Hi Greg
I assume your design can be refined to work well but needing an auxiliary transformer and supply to operate it may be an issue with, for example, simple DIY amps. More ambitious integrated amps and Pro. gear could be suitable applications, where this could act as a standby. In these, using a separate trafo for auxiliary circuits, preamp etc. is probably no big deal.
Beware, an amplifier in which the rail voltages rise very slowly (10s of seconds...any reason for the long time?) may also be acting as a strong oscillator or other mode and it is unwise to power up an amp in this way, connected to speakers or not.
I assume your design can be refined to work well but needing an auxiliary transformer and supply to operate it may be an issue with, for example, simple DIY amps. More ambitious integrated amps and Pro. gear could be suitable applications, where this could act as a standby. In these, using a separate trafo for auxiliary circuits, preamp etc. is probably no big deal.
Beware, an amplifier in which the rail voltages rise very slowly (10s of seconds...any reason for the long time?) may also be acting as a strong oscillator or other mode and it is unwise to power up an amp in this way, connected to speakers or not.
Thanks Ian. It's nice to have an encouraging comment as I expected this to be shut down pretty quickly given its elegant simplicity.
I think in this case the slow increase in voltage will not be detrimental as the amplifier is a very simple and stable single ended class a design (Pass labs Aleph 3). In any case the start up time is easily reduced by varying the RC combo.
Given that I have a 650VA main transformer and 300 000uF of capacitance the cost incurred by a small 15v transformer would not be a big deal, and certainly worth the soft start functionality.
What are your thoughts on noise generated by the switching? I guess in reality it can't be much worse than those in the main rectifiers, and should be easily snubbed with some 0.1uF mains caps??
Thanks again for your comments.
Greg.
I think in this case the slow increase in voltage will not be detrimental as the amplifier is a very simple and stable single ended class a design (Pass labs Aleph 3). In any case the start up time is easily reduced by varying the RC combo.
Given that I have a 650VA main transformer and 300 000uF of capacitance the cost incurred by a small 15v transformer would not be a big deal, and certainly worth the soft start functionality.
What are your thoughts on noise generated by the switching? I guess in reality it can't be much worse than those in the main rectifiers, and should be easily snubbed with some 0.1uF mains caps??
Thanks again for your comments.
Greg.
This circuit is lethal. Please do not use it.
Relays or optically coupled triacs are required to provide sufficient isolation for safe operation.
Do a bit of reading on how to turn on a mosfet and you will see that your control circuit is also a non-starter.
Relays or optically coupled triacs are required to provide sufficient isolation for safe operation.
Do a bit of reading on how to turn on a mosfet and you will see that your control circuit is also a non-starter.
Alan,
Thanks for your reply.
I am happy to use an optoisolator if necessary for safety. Good point.
As for the non starter part, would you mind enlightening me? Other than the fact that I may need some resistance going from the source pins to ground to ensure the gate voltage is always positive relative to the source I can't see the problem. It could also use a high value gate to gnd resistor toi ensure turn off and an off state on startup. But, as I said, I am a solid state noob so please help.
As I understand it the gate pins will always be positive wrt to ground and hence also the source pins (if I have a resistor from source to ground).
On positive half cycles the upper mosfet will conduct and the bottom bypass diode will also conduct, on negative half cycles the bottom fet will conduct and the upper diode will conduct. Ultimate current passed will be controlled by the degree to which the conducting fet is switched on, hence the gradual gate control using an RC network.
Could you please explain why it won't work? I knew there would be problems and I want to learn.
As for safety, you were right about the isolation, and that is exactly why I posted here for advice before attempting anything.
Any info you can give would be great!
Thanks for your reply.
I am happy to use an optoisolator if necessary for safety. Good point.
As for the non starter part, would you mind enlightening me? Other than the fact that I may need some resistance going from the source pins to ground to ensure the gate voltage is always positive relative to the source I can't see the problem. It could also use a high value gate to gnd resistor toi ensure turn off and an off state on startup. But, as I said, I am a solid state noob so please help.
As I understand it the gate pins will always be positive wrt to ground and hence also the source pins (if I have a resistor from source to ground).
On positive half cycles the upper mosfet will conduct and the bottom bypass diode will also conduct, on negative half cycles the bottom fet will conduct and the upper diode will conduct. Ultimate current passed will be controlled by the degree to which the conducting fet is switched on, hence the gradual gate control using an RC network.
Could you please explain why it won't work? I knew there would be problems and I want to learn.
As for safety, you were right about the isolation, and that is exactly why I posted here for advice before attempting anything.
Any info you can give would be great!
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Investigating further I can see that the gate driver circuit may need to be floating. But as I understand it this is easily achieved by using a dedicated transformer and not grounding the secondary. Thoughts?
I have a question:
What are your reason for not wanting to use a thermistor with a relay bridging the thermistor after 5 or 10 seconds? Using a simple lm555 circuit the 5 second timer can easily be done. A CL60 should do fine with a 650VA. For all those capacitance i might leave it in for 10 seconds. OR even use 2 x CL60's in series.
I agree with using a secondary transformer to power this circuit (they are cheap) compared to the rest of most amps and can be used for all sorts of other uses.
What are your reason for not wanting to use a thermistor with a relay bridging the thermistor after 5 or 10 seconds? Using a simple lm555 circuit the 5 second timer can easily be done. A CL60 should do fine with a 650VA. For all those capacitance i might leave it in for 10 seconds. OR even use 2 x CL60's in series.
I agree with using a secondary transformer to power this circuit (they are cheap) compared to the rest of most amps and can be used for all sorts of other uses.
Agreed... it's lethal.
Not trying to be negative, but the fact you post such a design without even mentioning isolation shows you aren't familiar or understand the issues, and others won't too, possibly with disastrous consequencies.
If, and only if, you promise to never build this lethal circuit. This may sound harsh, but I feel an ethical responsibility to the children and small animals that you may live with
Firstly a pic from a previous hobby, and yes that is a 10kVA 11kV pole transformer in the background.... I made this when I was 15, and without the help of the internet, so I am capable of learning and doing things safely under adequate instruction.
I posted this circuit as a conceptual idea, and yes I did not consider the need for isolation. It seems obvious now. I would never have built the circuit without first discussing it here with everyone and working towards a suitable and safe incarnation.
I can see now that perhaps posting an unfinished circuit was a bad idea and may mislead others. However, I would still like to try and make it work with the help of forum members, either publicly or discreetly, if you are willing.
I think it offers a neat way to reduce inrush current in a predictable way with no moving parts. It works both as the suppressing resistor and as the relay. I also think it will generate less noise than the usual SSRs that are out there due to the better suitability of the bypass diodes for this purpose. If you know of a commercial mosfet based SSR then by all means let me know.
In any case, if you are not interested I will go back to my other idea of using a 74HC14 schmitt trigger and a relay, but I really like the pure solid state option.
I posted this circuit as a conceptual idea, and yes I did not consider the need for isolation. It seems obvious now. I would never have built the circuit without first discussing it here with everyone and working towards a suitable and safe incarnation.
I can see now that perhaps posting an unfinished circuit was a bad idea and may mislead others. However, I would still like to try and make it work with the help of forum members, either publicly or discreetly, if you are willing.
I think it offers a neat way to reduce inrush current in a predictable way with no moving parts. It works both as the suppressing resistor and as the relay. I also think it will generate less noise than the usual SSRs that are out there due to the better suitability of the bypass diodes for this purpose. If you know of a commercial mosfet based SSR then by all means let me know.
In any case, if you are not interested I will go back to my other idea of using a 74HC14 schmitt trigger and a relay, but I really like the pure solid state option.
Attachments
Well nothing really, and that is a perfectly legitimate solution.
But being practical is not one of my strongpoints 🙂
I think I will end up going this way as my proposed circuit is looking too difficult.
I have a nice idea using a 74HC14...will post soon.
[I will end up going this way as my proposed circuit is looking too difficult.
/QUOTE]
Swordfishy,
It's not a knock on your creativity....please isolate that circuit!
regards,
Terry
/QUOTE]
Swordfishy,
It's not a knock on your creativity....please isolate that circuit!
regards,
Terry
first of all, the gate voltage needs to be referenced to the source terminal, which your circuit didn't do. second, many MOSFETs have internal zener diodes between the gate and source, which would put about 100Vac on the gates, and so on back through the 15V supply (that's on the bad list, even with isolation), as well as being well beyond the max Vgs limits of any MOSFET. also, a MOSFET (as long as Vgs remains the proper polarity) is already a "bidirectional" device. and i often see them used as AC switches, but usually at much more manageable voltages. the better course of action would be to use a thermistor and relay as described, as tempting as the idea of using MOSFETs might be.
Power MOSFETS always have a "drain-to-source-diode" which makes it impossible for these devices to isolate drain source voltages of both polarities. That is why two MOSFETs are needed wired in series back to back. In conduction mode a MOSFET can conduct both polarities, but we also want to isolate both polarities.
I also just recently thought of designing a "soft start mains power up" using MOSFETs and an opto driver. But I dropped this idea very quickly, because the needed devices are much more expensive than those for the usual relay approach and they are very troublesome to find and buy (for me). And I could not see enough advantage of the solid state over the relay solution.
I also just recently thought of designing a "soft start mains power up" using MOSFETs and an opto driver. But I dropped this idea very quickly, because the needed devices are much more expensive than those for the usual relay approach and they are very troublesome to find and buy (for me). And I could not see enough advantage of the solid state over the relay solution.
Yes, the unsafety of the circuit is clear. So it should also be with other lethal circuits commonly used by DIY builders. Ever thought about the typical Soft starter? ...often mains active volts all over the PCB there. Thankfully, there are no controls necessary and no further isolating requirements but they are still lethal to the unaware.
There are regulations providing for active circuitry like this, open mains wiring and SMPS etc. at mains potential, to be enclosed seperately within electronic appliances.
Its good to have a few guys explain the issues carefully and helpfully, even suggesting more appropriate methods in view of the humongous capacitor bank before signing off on ideas.
There are regulations providing for active circuitry like this, open mains wiring and SMPS etc. at mains potential, to be enclosed seperately within electronic appliances.
Its good to have a few guys explain the issues carefully and helpfully, even suggesting more appropriate methods in view of the humongous capacitor bank before signing off on ideas.
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MOSFETs are not designed to have much isolation between the gate and source. A typical absolute maximum rating is +/-20V for Vgs (the voltage between gate and source)
First, let us remove the cap so that the delay in the circuit doesn't confuse matters and you start with a fixed +15V on the gates.
Now lets consider what will happen during the first half cycle of the mains voltage. The lower MOSFET will conduct through its body diode. This will reference (very poorly) the upper MOSFET source to ground though your transformer primary. The upper MOSFET will turn on.
Now assuming that the body diode of the lower MOSFET does not instantly vaporise AND the gate oxide layer on the upper MOSFET can magically withstand mains voltage... as the mains voltage rises, the Vgs of the upper MOSFET reduces which slowly turns the MOSFET off (the point to remember is that for the MOSFET to remain turned on the gate must be more positive than the source - in this case your fixed gate voltage is only briefly higher than the voltage that you are switching). Depending on the parasitic elements in the circuit, the upper MOSFET may either oscillate (turn ON/OFF) or enter an equilibrium state of high resistance when it gets 'stuck' between fully on and fully off states. Both states will mean high power dissipation and rapid failure of the upper MOSFET.
If you start with a negative cycle then just exchange upper for lower (and vice versa) in the above description.
So what happens if the delay capacitor is in circuit? Well, that will explode violently when the upper MOSFET gate oxide barrier fails and puts 230V on your electrolytic cap.
Most likely scenario? During the first half cycle, the lower MOSFET will vaporize AND the upper MOSFET gate will fail, putting full mains voltage on your +15V control circuit and causing the cap to explode and a, hopefully, small fire. If your fingers are anywhere on the circuit then you would get burnt and/or electrocuted.
Please do not use your original circuit.
Please do use a timer circuit (555 timer or logic gate based) to control a power switch that has proper mains voltage isolation ratings - a relay is the best option for DIY.
Please power the timer circuit from an isolated supply (not directly from the mains).
This way you will have a reliable safe mains soft start and you will live long enough to enjoy a fascinating hobby.
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