90dB sensitive ist not PA. That is still toy speakers (or "hifi" as it is called nowadays).
PA starts at ~95dB, up to about 110dB for the very big stacks.
This attitude about "toy (hi-fi) speakers" is indicative as to why live pop music sound is in such an atrocious state.
If anyone even thought about it, much less researched sound in professional concert halls, the idea of distributed sound using many smaller ("hi fi") speakers as sound reinforcement makes a lot more sense than one (or a stack) of speakers at the front of the hall. The distributed speakers would have to be lower powered and have a specified range of coverage, so that the first sound from the speaker would not be at such a high level beyond the specified range of coverage, so as to overwhelm the precedence effect and mess up the reverberant sound field.
The same concept could also be used in small clubs (which I point out is the original focus of this thread). But this would be, once again, a high cost solution not likely to be adopted by your average club, albeit a "hi fi" one as well.
No time alignment or electronic time delay hardware needed if the goal is sound reinforcement, speakers have controlled directivity/coverage, and levels are kept so that precedence effect is not disturbed. We are talking about a small club here, not a concert hall so the implementation is much simpler to achieve
We are talking about a small club. We will use small speakers, they could be JBL coaxial speakers with transformers for 70 volt distribution lines, or some other approach. Perhaps even high fi speakers. They will be mounted on the ceiling, facing down. The line of speakers in the front would be located so that the stage would be at the distance (shown on the directivity plots at 1 kHz or so) where sound levels would be down 20 db relative to the center of the speaker. The initial approach that I would suggest for controlling the array is to establish at least two zones of control - speakers near the front, and then remaining speakers. Speakers near the front would be at lower volume, given that there is much more direct sound at the front so less reinforcement is needed. Speakers at the back would be at a higher volume but low enough so they would not themselves cause significant additional contribution to the reverberant sound field. Some EQ may be appropriate to lessen any contribution to the reverberant sound field since we are talking primarily about voice and acoustic instrument reinforcement.
This approach would not work in a large concert venue without professional sound design and significant EQ and possibly time delay. But we are not talking about such venues in this thread, correct?
Another approach that I like to use is to bounce all audience sound off the ceilings and walls, if they are high and wide enough and I have multiple speakers available. Here is where additional power is desired, to make up for the absorption of the surfaces and the additional distances associated with the indirect path (the log law works against you here). But even in this situation, gobs of power are not required for sound reinforcement in a small club. The direct sound of drums and amplified instruments should be good enough - the performer should be responsible for adjusting his/her volume.
This is the thing: how many have actually hear unamplified instruments or singers in a good hall? You don't need any amplification, except for the MC/announcer, and singer(s) (if singing along with the band or combo). Solo wind instruments can blow you out if you are in the front 20 rows. String instruments are not that different in a small to medium hall (250 seats).
This approach would not work in a large concert venue without professional sound design and significant EQ and possibly time delay. But we are not talking about such venues in this thread, correct?
Another approach that I like to use is to bounce all audience sound off the ceilings and walls, if they are high and wide enough and I have multiple speakers available. Here is where additional power is desired, to make up for the absorption of the surfaces and the additional distances associated with the indirect path (the log law works against you here). But even in this situation, gobs of power are not required for sound reinforcement in a small club. The direct sound of drums and amplified instruments should be good enough - the performer should be responsible for adjusting his/her volume.
This is the thing: how many have actually hear unamplified instruments or singers in a good hall? You don't need any amplification, except for the MC/announcer, and singer(s) (if singing along with the band or combo). Solo wind instruments can blow you out if you are in the front 20 rows. String instruments are not that different in a small to medium hall (250 seats).
Gobs of power ARE needed to totally avoid clipping VOCALS, which is what I hear a LOT of in small clubs. Vocal amplification is the only thing that a "PA" system should be used for in small clubs. Drums, guitar/bass/keyboard amps, and horns are already loud enough by themselves
"PA" speakers are generally quite efficient, yes. Perhaps that's why they all sound so HARSH, honkey and nasal. They could gain alot from their hi-fi counterparts to impart NATURAL vocal sounds.
If the audience and performers want headbanging instrument levels (to which point, I say, who cares about clipping vocals), then I agree, you need some power for vocals to get over the instruments. But clipping vocals in most cases occurs because some idiot is also miking the instruments and putting them into the mix. If the sound reinforcement was limited to vocals in a small club, and proper gain staging is used, there should not be consistent hard clipping.
Perhaps I should also mention that I'm talking about rock/R&B. Don't know about rap/hip-hop/house music and don't really care about that type of music.
I can see why turk 182 has jumped thread.
There are lots of good reasons why we do things the way we do in professional sound reinforcement.
Lets take a look at your alternatives...
Having seen exactly what happens to "HiFi" speakers in a small venue trying to play loud music, I can say right off the bat that this is not going to work. I managed to salvage what I could of their speakers, and assembled one working speaker from three that had failed in some way. I then recommended they get rid of the little 5" 2-way boxes, and get something with an 8" bass driver and a couple of hundred watts of power handling. That's just for the fill speakers for background/DJ use. The main PA is more meaty.
We're talking about reinforcing a band. That can mean anything from a vocals-only PA, up to fully micing the drum kit.
You're making the (incorrect) assumption that everyone wants to hear everything at the same volume. Your suggested system wouldn't do that, but it is the assumption you're running with. Most pubs/bars/clubs I've worked at (and there have been many) end up divided like so:
- Those that want to listen to the music,
- Those that don't.
Those that don't will leave if they cannot easily hold a conversation with the person next to them.
To reiterate, a distributed system where everyone hears the music at the same volume will cost more money to install, sound bad, fail, and drive away customers. For live music, it's pretty much a universally bad idea.
Mmmm, yes. Bouncing sound off walls.
Great for two things:
- Vocal intelligibility
- Keeping PA sound out of the microphones.
Oh wait. It makes both of those a whole lot worse.
Dealing with difficult acoustics is part of the job, as is making sure the mics don't feed back constantly. Bouncing sound off walls in a live sound environment is seriously negative progress.
Okay. Stand in front of a guitar amp. Directly in front of the speaker. While the guitarist plays, take three steps to the side. Note how the volume (particularly the upper tones) has decreased.
Guitar amps particularly are bad for this - they are incredibly directional. A loud 1x12" will carve a laserbeam of destruction into the crowd, while leaving the rest of the audience wondering why they can't hear the guitar.
Good PA speakers sound the same over the coverage angle, which is a much better way of getting sound into the audience.
Me. Lots of times.
Not even slightly relevant to the thread, though - we're talking about bands in small venues.
Here's another of your posts:
I'll say this just one time: gain staging will never, ever, save you if the PA system is inadequate for the job.
Nothing wrong with loud instrument levels. Vocals still need to be heard clearly.
Saying you don't care about certain genres is just the icing on the cake. Every good sound engineer I've come across has a very varied music collection. I listen to everything from classical to ceilidh (the ceilidh scene is big in here in Sheffield, so I make sure I know what it should sound like), rap, death metal, classic rock, acoustic, dubstep, etc etc. Everything I can get my hands on. I have my preferences, of course, but I try to keep things as varied as possible.
The next show might feature an artist from any of those genres, and I'll always make sure I know how to make the artist sound their best.
Chris
There are lots of good reasons why we do things the way we do in professional sound reinforcement.
Lets take a look at your alternatives...
Having seen exactly what happens to "HiFi" speakers in a small venue trying to play loud music, I can say right off the bat that this is not going to work. I managed to salvage what I could of their speakers, and assembled one working speaker from three that had failed in some way. I then recommended they get rid of the little 5" 2-way boxes, and get something with an 8" bass driver and a couple of hundred watts of power handling. That's just for the fill speakers for background/DJ use. The main PA is more meaty.
We're talking about reinforcing a band. That can mean anything from a vocals-only PA, up to fully micing the drum kit.
You're making the (incorrect) assumption that everyone wants to hear everything at the same volume. Your suggested system wouldn't do that, but it is the assumption you're running with. Most pubs/bars/clubs I've worked at (and there have been many) end up divided like so:
- Those that want to listen to the music,
- Those that don't.
Those that don't will leave if they cannot easily hold a conversation with the person next to them.
To reiterate, a distributed system where everyone hears the music at the same volume will cost more money to install, sound bad, fail, and drive away customers. For live music, it's pretty much a universally bad idea.
Mmmm, yes. Bouncing sound off walls.
Great for two things:
- Vocal intelligibility
- Keeping PA sound out of the microphones.
Oh wait. It makes both of those a whole lot worse.
Dealing with difficult acoustics is part of the job, as is making sure the mics don't feed back constantly. Bouncing sound off walls in a live sound environment is seriously negative progress.
Okay. Stand in front of a guitar amp. Directly in front of the speaker. While the guitarist plays, take three steps to the side. Note how the volume (particularly the upper tones) has decreased.
Guitar amps particularly are bad for this - they are incredibly directional. A loud 1x12" will carve a laserbeam of destruction into the crowd, while leaving the rest of the audience wondering why they can't hear the guitar.
Good PA speakers sound the same over the coverage angle, which is a much better way of getting sound into the audience.
Me. Lots of times.
Not even slightly relevant to the thread, though - we're talking about bands in small venues.
Here's another of your posts:
I'll say this just one time: gain staging will never, ever, save you if the PA system is inadequate for the job.
Nothing wrong with loud instrument levels. Vocals still need to be heard clearly.
Saying you don't care about certain genres is just the icing on the cake. Every good sound engineer I've come across has a very varied music collection. I listen to everything from classical to ceilidh (the ceilidh scene is big in here in Sheffield, so I make sure I know what it should sound like), rap, death metal, classic rock, acoustic, dubstep, etc etc. Everything I can get my hands on. I have my preferences, of course, but I try to keep things as varied as possible.
The next show might feature an artist from any of those genres, and I'll always make sure I know how to make the artist sound their best.
Chris
Funny how, as a member of the audience, I've never had problems listening to an unamplified band using the PA only for vocals in a small venue.
Funny how I've used some of my techniques for PA in small to large venues with no problems. I'de say one thing: I'm not good at using EQ and I know it: I've seen the real whiz's use a Mackie to get the best tone possible from your standard SM58s. And I've been to many shows where the sound is excellent and they are using the same equipment that others use to no good. It is, in fact, the operator that makes the difference - assuming the performer is reasonable.
Funny how I've used some of my techniques for PA in small to large venues with no problems. I'de say one thing: I'm not good at using EQ and I know it: I've seen the real whiz's use a Mackie to get the best tone possible from your standard SM58s. And I've been to many shows where the sound is excellent and they are using the same equipment that others use to no good. It is, in fact, the operator that makes the difference - assuming the performer is reasonable.
Chris saved the thread. Finally some sane comments in here.
Personally, I feel deeply attacked on a physical level as I was both out of air and my stomach muscles are hurting seriously now after I laughed over the following ideas (that I had overlooked yesterday): bouncing sound off the wall and "hifi" speakers and 5" 2 ways in a club.............. loool. (Even though I like my pair of Control 2P as PC speakers)
Personally, I feel deeply attacked on a physical level as I was both out of air and my stomach muscles are hurting seriously now after I laughed over the following ideas (that I had overlooked yesterday): bouncing sound off the wall and "hifi" speakers and 5" 2 ways in a club.............. loool. (Even though I like my pair of Control 2P as PC speakers)
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