I did a quick simulation for you at this website.
http://sbp.softica.dk/2.0/en/
For bass reflex this is how it looks like at 40W. Which is as much as you should go without frying your satori.
In fact if 80Hz is all you intend it to go you should consider sealed for better bass transient and a smaller cabinet actually at only 3 litres.
The satori is one hell of a performer in bass. Very punchy and fast transient. I have heard the 6 inch in action. I believe much better than the rest of the 8 inch... you have listed...
Oon
http://sbp.softica.dk/2.0/en/
For bass reflex this is how it looks like at 40W. Which is as much as you should go without frying your satori.
In fact if 80Hz is all you intend it to go you should consider sealed for better bass transient and a smaller cabinet actually at only 3 litres.
The satori is one hell of a performer in bass. Very punchy and fast transient. I have heard the 6 inch in action. I believe much better than the rest of the 8 inch... you have listed...
Oon
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@oon_the_kid Yep I know, its built like a micro subwoofer with its generous roll of surround and extensive venting on the back. The way I intended the boxes was about 6.5l tuned to 70-80 Hz. This gave me a big hump from the port, which I then filtered with BW2 highpass at 120 Hz, resulting in nice blend with the sub, controlled excursion below Fb, and group delay below audibility threshold. BUT if I move the highpass to 200Hz, I reduce excursion by about 30% and remain in the lowest distortion area of this woofer. Less excursion = lower passband THD and IMD. Also, more headroom to experiment with DSP, like compensating for the loudness curve if I like. So this is my main motivation, relieve the small midwoofer from bass duties.
@Rokytheman what are You using it with? How how do You cut it? On paper this woofer really looks pretty good, excellent value from SB, which is why its on the poll 🙂
@Rokytheman what are You using it with? How how do You cut it? On paper this woofer really looks pretty good, excellent value from SB, which is why its on the poll 🙂
@oon_the_kid one more point about excursion - I've seen driver reviews at audioxpress where true "linear" excursion was pretty limited to 1-2 mm due to compliance or motor, even though specs would list excursion as way higher. This is another reason to relieve the driver playing midrange from high excursion.
Scanspeak 22W/8534
if you have separate box subwoofer, then dual 8" SS with truncated top midrange+tweeter with Sasha DAW is a good example. or Troels classic 3way for reference
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Discovery-861.htm
I'm also building 3 way Dynaudio with assisted subwoofer. 24W100 which is 8" woofer for 50-200Hz to support esotar2 650
indeed 6" mid driver like satori can reach 50Hz range but it will be better to let it play it's best above 200Hz. additional dedicated midbass is better
@Milus : I use them in an old rebuild of an B&O Cabinet, fitted with retro frontgrill. SB20 is crossed around 650 Hz topology LR24 to a Vifa TC9. It is my kitchen FAST speaker LOL with a horrid placement. But I do like them. I have experimentet adding some felt-dots to the cone, which works fine to tame the "papersound". Keep et mind it is uncoated, hence the paper will rip a bit.
Of course you can get better bass out there, but hard to beat for the money. Believe it is used in this product:
https://lemus-home.dk/products/lemu...32068&pr_ref_pid=7067230863525&pr_seq=uniform
I think you are on right track adding a woofer. Using the small Satori (which I have not heard but do think sound great), will run out of steam, and as you wrote, midrange improves the less is needs to do.
I do think the SS 8" also sounds great, but I dont think it will do well in only 13 liters. But I believe it is one or two steps up from the SB20.
One tip is to make the cabinet, so that you can change the front. I would do that.
Of course you can get better bass out there, but hard to beat for the money. Believe it is used in this product:
https://lemus-home.dk/products/lemu...32068&pr_ref_pid=7067230863525&pr_seq=uniform
I think you are on right track adding a woofer. Using the small Satori (which I have not heard but do think sound great), will run out of steam, and as you wrote, midrange improves the less is needs to do.
I do think the SS 8" also sounds great, but I dont think it will do well in only 13 liters. But I believe it is one or two steps up from the SB20.
One tip is to make the cabinet, so that you can change the front. I would do that.
I dont know if you already built test cabinet, but I would always advise to do that. Yes on paper one can do a lot with DSP, but 8" in 13 L, is bending the laws IMO.
Also I think you should reconsider your thought on damping materials. In old days, speakers were filed to the top with damping material, which to my experience strangle the bass. Back then Qtc often times were rather high, which does NOT yield in slow bass, because highish Qtc below 0,9 is still "faster" than the best theoretical vented alignment. Vented alignment can sound fine, and have less excursion, but I prefer sealed.
If you have a smallish cabinet and cross low ie below 200 hz, there is no standing waves to tame. So you dont need a lot of damping material (thick felt and some with experience works best to my experience)
Also I think you should reconsider your thought on damping materials. In old days, speakers were filed to the top with damping material, which to my experience strangle the bass. Back then Qtc often times were rather high, which does NOT yield in slow bass, because highish Qtc below 0,9 is still "faster" than the best theoretical vented alignment. Vented alignment can sound fine, and have less excursion, but I prefer sealed.
If you have a smallish cabinet and cross low ie below 200 hz, there is no standing waves to tame. So you dont need a lot of damping material (thick felt and some with experience works best to my experience)
I just realized you are looking for 13 L sealed. In that case, I would recommend the Scan Speak 15W8530-K01. Smaller than 8" but it sounds so incrediby good. I've used it, specificaly in these. Incredibly good speakers. https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/thr...-e-ix-mini-monitor-loudspeaker-system.112821/
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@Rokytheman SB20 & Peerless TC9 must be an amazing value for money. Once I finish my speakers I'll do some for my wife's parents and I'll definately go this route. Maybe I'll pick SB racetrack woofer for that, it's smaller SD-wise than SB20 but it has nice spec too.
Back to 8" woofer in my smallish cab, I use Basta! for simulations. With Scan 22W4534 in 13l sealed, if I set stuffing to 30% and box losses to Ql=3 to mimoc aperiodic venting (essentially a hole in the wall with thick felt/fiberglass) I can reach Qtc of about 0,55 so almost critically damped. Although I must admit that atm I have no idea how to calculate the aperiodic vent area. Heavy cone woofers would also work although at reduced sensitivity.
Seas for the poll is happy with Butterworth alignment in just 11l sealed, having an f3 of around 60Hz without any DSP. The drawback is that I cannot repurpose it for a 2 way if I ever wanted and I can't find much qualitative info on it. People seem to favour Scan Speak.
@audiosteve anything smaller than 8" makes little sense, as it won't be as clean down low or it will cost more. Theoretically I can bend 8" to play even in 13l without pushing too much cone movement.
Back to 8" woofer in my smallish cab, I use Basta! for simulations. With Scan 22W4534 in 13l sealed, if I set stuffing to 30% and box losses to Ql=3 to mimoc aperiodic venting (essentially a hole in the wall with thick felt/fiberglass) I can reach Qtc of about 0,55 so almost critically damped. Although I must admit that atm I have no idea how to calculate the aperiodic vent area. Heavy cone woofers would also work although at reduced sensitivity.
Seas for the poll is happy with Butterworth alignment in just 11l sealed, having an f3 of around 60Hz without any DSP. The drawback is that I cannot repurpose it for a 2 way if I ever wanted and I can't find much qualitative info on it. People seem to favour Scan Speak.
@audiosteve anything smaller than 8" makes little sense, as it won't be as clean down low or it will cost more. Theoretically I can bend 8" to play even in 13l without pushing too much cone movement.
If you'd like to keep the option to change to 3-way, the Seas H1471 would be a better choice than the H1192. That driver could match a good waveguide tweeter. Or even better the H1659, as you don't need long throw and this one has the copper rings you want for lower distortion figures.
Thanks! I picked H1192 because its small-box happy, from what I recall from sims H1471 called for a slightly larger box but that is not that much of problem with DSP in the chain. This U22REX / H1659 indeed looks interesting and copper rings make it stand out from budget woofers listed in poll. It is about 25% more expensive than Scan Discovery but I I guess quality (copper) come at a price, epsecially if I push for a woofer that has large magnet (small box happy), low distortion below and above 100hz AND has smooth FR for 2 way options 🙂
Probably I'll try to find something second hand, people in this hobby stock way too many drivers from projects that never started...
You're right and spec-wise its very close to Scan 22W8534. Thing is, according to dibirama measurements Scan has lower distortion, yes its pricier but not as much as Seas U22REX.
Anyway, Poll has been closed and the winner is Dayton RS225P-4A with 4 votes. Woofer with the lowest Qms and highest Rms of the bunch 🙂 I guess this goes to show just how important these metrics are 🙂 🙂 I plan to go with the Scan Discovery unless something clearly better shows up second hand locally. Scan Revelators I hope!
Is it just me, or does the RS225 have almost the same breakup as the RS225P ? The Alu version actually goes higher and cleaner, before breaking up.
So I played with the graphs from dibirama website. I tracked responses for 90 and 96 db for Scan Discovery, Peerless HDS, SB20PFC, Dayton RS225 and Scan Speak Classic.
In the band between 70 and 200 hz SB20 won hands down. If dibirama graphs are any accurate then its a budget no-brainer for a 3 way, even though distortion above 200 hz started to rise significantly.
Scan Discovery came in second, havong equal or slightly bettee distortion figures than Scan Classic surprisingly. I guess this is the benefit of higher sensitivity, as these measurenents are performed at equal loudnesss not equal voltage like at Hifcompass.
Seas drivers CA22RNY and CA22RNX had visibly higher distortion below 150 hz so I didn't even bother to trace their distorion figuers. Considering this it is suprising how popular these are. Another surprise was highish distortion from Dayton RS225 (alu version), again a case of sensitivity I guess.
@markbakk have You seen any measurements of the Seas U22REX? I couldn't find any unfortunately.
Generally it looks like stronger magnets (low Qts to better fit smaller boxes) and higher Qms are correlated wit price, budget 8" woofers either have Qms of around 3-4 or low Qts. To have both You have to shelve out for a pricier woofer. If You have the space for larger boxes then Scan Discovery looks really good for a clean woofer.
In the band between 70 and 200 hz SB20 won hands down. If dibirama graphs are any accurate then its a budget no-brainer for a 3 way, even though distortion above 200 hz started to rise significantly.
Scan Discovery came in second, havong equal or slightly bettee distortion figures than Scan Classic surprisingly. I guess this is the benefit of higher sensitivity, as these measurenents are performed at equal loudnesss not equal voltage like at Hifcompass.
Seas drivers CA22RNY and CA22RNX had visibly higher distortion below 150 hz so I didn't even bother to trace their distorion figuers. Considering this it is suprising how popular these are. Another surprise was highish distortion from Dayton RS225 (alu version), again a case of sensitivity I guess.
@markbakk have You seen any measurements of the Seas U22REX? I couldn't find any unfortunately.
Generally it looks like stronger magnets (low Qts to better fit smaller boxes) and higher Qms are correlated wit price, budget 8" woofers either have Qms of around 3-4 or low Qts. To have both You have to shelve out for a pricier woofer. If You have the space for larger boxes then Scan Discovery looks really good for a clean woofer.
B&C 8NDL51 and Tymphany NE180W-08 are very nice low distortion midbass drivers. I use both in various 4 way designs. The NE180 is a little more hifi than the 8NDL51, but both are very good.
I tried to look around too, for a great midwoofer. And I mostly settled on the WO24. A bit more pricy than the others - liike 50% extra. But it seems that it has way less stored energy in the 400-600Hz area, when I look at CSD plot. This could be important when crossing at ar ound 500Hz to a smaller midrange. The Scan Disc 22W do look like a good cheaper alternative.
Time to make up our mind I guess. I suggested the HDS because I thought you wanted the option to use the range above 200Hz too. But now you don’t. The SB is just fine. The Discovery too. Pick either.
Seas is a brand with excellent quality building and a very good price quality ratio. Quality building and engineering are some points important to my eyes. You cannot go wrong with SEAS.
The CA22RNX is a good contender for the project. A classical paper driver. Compare to a 22W8534, no demodulation ring and a paper cone with less neutral sound.
U22REX was tested in Hobby Hifi 04/2013. U22, CA22RNY don't have a good bass extension in low volume closed box, too big magnet ?
Regarding Seas woofers quality, dibirama measurements are mainly 2nd harmonic driven so somewhat useless if it can't be broken down to 2nd/3rd/ higher order harmonics. Its just no other site had measurments for both Discovery and Daytons.
Baffle width constraint is drivig me crazy, I'm 1 cm short for fitting SB23NRX which would be perfect for a small, highly stuffed sealed box. Its cheap, low distortion and has high Qms if it matters. I even found a great deal locally at below 80 USD each. Scan Discovery is around 100 USD, so not a deal breaker but I don't feel like it delivers much better performance than SB. I'm debating between just getting the Scan or cutting excees beffle on SB23NRX 🙂 Seas is a bit expensive in comparison.
I also came across a Usher 8133 at just 45 USD. Almost no info about these but I managed to find T/S. SPL 90 db/1W at 8 ohm impedance, 26.4 fs, 0.23 Qts (4.26 Qms), 80 litre Vas. So it looks like it ticks all the boxes, reaches Q of 0.55 in my tiny box, I could even vent it for an f3 at 55-60 hz to have GD practically like a closed box at 80 hz.
I'll treat it as a curiosity unless I find more info about it, Scan Disco will remain my base case scenario. Thanks everyone for Your thoughts!
Baffle width constraint is drivig me crazy, I'm 1 cm short for fitting SB23NRX which would be perfect for a small, highly stuffed sealed box. Its cheap, low distortion and has high Qms if it matters. I even found a great deal locally at below 80 USD each. Scan Discovery is around 100 USD, so not a deal breaker but I don't feel like it delivers much better performance than SB. I'm debating between just getting the Scan or cutting excees beffle on SB23NRX 🙂 Seas is a bit expensive in comparison.
I also came across a Usher 8133 at just 45 USD. Almost no info about these but I managed to find T/S. SPL 90 db/1W at 8 ohm impedance, 26.4 fs, 0.23 Qts (4.26 Qms), 80 litre Vas. So it looks like it ticks all the boxes, reaches Q of 0.55 in my tiny box, I could even vent it for an f3 at 55-60 hz to have GD practically like a closed box at 80 hz.
I'll treat it as a curiosity unless I find more info about it, Scan Disco will remain my base case scenario. Thanks everyone for Your thoughts!