Sorry Scott, i didn´t realize that. To me
"My apologies this has gone far astray from just how many interpolations are normal in a CD. We still don't have a definitive answer."
looked like an apology for leading the discussion astray while still maintaining the assertion that no different error correction.....
It´s the usual problem of too many variables. That is the reason why the inventors (as posted before) linked it to the BER.
As an indicator for normal use the results from Pano, SY, me and others might help, but if you want to know about the underlying population overall, that requires a different series of experiments and i don´t know if somebody has done it.
Yes I could have been clearer the first time. I was embarrassed to find myself trapped in finding a reference claiming what I wanted to hear and not following up first. I couldn't find a free download of the Yellow book spec.
I searched some of the forums such as hydrogenaudio and found a couple of folks that did compare an EAC rip with an SPDIF record at 1x and using bit compare tools or Matlab and found no errors. The links to the details were all dead. I thought of an experiment that would be easy to do but, using a CDR would add a level of doubt. I'm not about to pay for a run of test CD's to be pressed.
Hi Mark,
You're saying that you use normal audio test discs for data drive performance testing? How about exercising the error correction.
In the process of testing and quantifying a system, you do want to create errors beyond the maximums stated in the documentation for that standard. You want to create real situations where the performance between systems is dramatic. It matters how a system responds to situations that fall outside the boundaries of "the standard". In the case of a CDROM, you also want to use the encoding system for data. Any program disc will create an eye pattern that could have impairments added for this purpose. I'm actually surprised there aren't any such CDROMs available. I know that the CD test discs are used to align a CDROM, but wouldn't it be useful to test the entire data signal path?
-Chris
You're saying that you use normal audio test discs for data drive performance testing? How about exercising the error correction.
In the process of testing and quantifying a system, you do want to create errors beyond the maximums stated in the documentation for that standard. You want to create real situations where the performance between systems is dramatic. It matters how a system responds to situations that fall outside the boundaries of "the standard". In the case of a CDROM, you also want to use the encoding system for data. Any program disc will create an eye pattern that could have impairments added for this purpose. I'm actually surprised there aren't any such CDROMs available. I know that the CD test discs are used to align a CDROM, but wouldn't it be useful to test the entire data signal path?
-Chris
Almedio produces a wide range of test media. It covers neary every thinkable variable and even CD-R encoded in mode 01.
Products?ALMEDIO.INC
I would have thought light tape would have been a good test? Some of you are old enough that you must still have rolls of it lying around 😛
I think the suggestion has been made that an AB/X test is a poor test because it desensitizes the listener and makes the listener expect no differences to be heard.
But in fact the exact opposite is true. Experienced listeners can hear very small differences (often do to uncontrolled variables). And even true Just Noticeable Differences during the test (using harsh test signals), become meaningless while listening to real world music.
But in fact the exact opposite is true. Experienced listeners can hear very small differences (often do to uncontrolled variables). And even true Just Noticeable Differences during the test (using harsh test signals), become meaningless while listening to real world music.
Have you noticed that when people want to concentrate on trying to hear minute details, they often close their eyes? 😀
Jan
Jan
^ That's a bit different than making it so they can't see the DUT, though. 🙂
Have we moved past the point of fairies dancing on a pinhead? (I'm pretty happy with the fact that I HDD'd my music a while ago so this is moot.)
Have we moved past the point of fairies dancing on a pinhead? (I'm pretty happy with the fact that I HDD'd my music a while ago so this is moot.)
Hi Jan,
-Chris
Yes, I do that all the time. By closing your eyes, you stop a ton of information coming in so that you can more effectively concentrate. I turn the music in the car off if I'm looking for an address or store as well.
-Chris
Mark, do you realize that the conversation has evolved into the most errant of minutia about the Reed-Soloman algorithm and its robustness; and said conversation pretty much dead from a content perspective? If there's meat to be discussed, let's go about it, otherwise may we call a duck a duck? Or do you just want to get into meta-pop-psychological analyses of your least favorite posters?
Do you have any non-speculative data to bring to the table with regards to irrecoverable error rates on read, and data transmission/reception issues over whichever connection protocol? No, then you're also adding pure noise to the conversation and perpetuating meaningless conversation.
Also, please thicken skin; may do you some good.
The most everyday obvious things are noticed rarely.
Even the lawmakers missed that. They think that hands-on phone calls while driving are hazardous, but that hands free is not. They missed the obvious elephant that it is not whether you hold your phone or not; it's whether you are in a conversion that causes the stray of attention and potential danger.
And yes, you just discovered a strong reason for controlled testing.
Jan
Better, thank you. Given a choice, I like the diatribe approach much better than the other thing.
Gives more substance and meat to your post.
But, if the conversation is pretty much dead, why keep reading it? It seems odd to keep reading a dead conversation only to complain about it, or to try to force it to an end for everybody else.
Well, in part curiosity of anything evolving, part for the fun of it, part dunno?
Also, my comment was made largely in jest since Pano made the same reference previously in this thread. Evidently failed humor?
Also, my comment was made largely in jest since Pano made the same reference previously in this thread. Evidently failed humor?
I'm still interested in any mechanism on the transport that could possible cause the effects that reviewers talk about. I've yet to see anything that gives even a glimmer of correlation.
Aside: I do miss my CD80 as a transport, but mainly because of the way it worked, the fact that it was solid and the purposeful whirring as it ingested a CD or spat it out. It didn't make disks sound better, but it gave a good experience.
Aside: I do miss my CD80 as a transport, but mainly because of the way it worked, the fact that it was solid and the purposeful whirring as it ingested a CD or spat it out. It didn't make disks sound better, but it gave a good experience.
My inclination would be to record the SPDIF stream out of each transport into a PC using the same CD and PC interface. If all the ripped files are bitwise identical, so far so good.
If that works, I suppose I would try playing everything including the different transports and the ripped files though a DAC with impeccable jitter rejection performance, like maybe a DAC-2. Do people now think they sound different?
If no, so far so good.
Next try some cheap DACs and see if any perceived difference.
If problems at any stage, they could be investigated further. A claimed effect could be all in the listener, or it could be real. The trick is to try do the testing in a way that doesn't put the listener's self respect in jeopardy. To keep them open minded about the tests, they need to be in a situation where they can feel comfortable with finding out if they were wrong. For some people, that might not be possible, but for curious people wanting to get to the truth, you have to help them find it for themselves if you want them to come around.
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