Funny Thread
Regardless of taste or design philosophy importance, Jim's technical assessment is correct.
With a 3 inch center to center spacing the comb filtering will be clearly a problem.
And he was only talking about driver to driver cancellation. There will be even greater cancellation from the top woofer to the bottom woofer as the center to center spacing there is about 9 inches.
I have worked extensively with line sources and recently with a lot of full range drivers, and I say full range meaning that they are feed a full range signal not that they are capable of playing full range, which none of these really are.
I recently took measurements on a 3" TB driver. Then added a second driver with a center to center just barely over 3".
It added 6db across the board except in the highs where the comb filtering gobbled up the high frequencies. 20kHz was 6db down and this was with a mic position that was in the center of the two drivers and 1 meter away.
A long line of 3" woofers, and I have used as many as 48 of them per side in some designs in double columns, will have enough comb filtering to keep them from even playing over about 3kHz with any effectiveness.
Secondly, simulations are little more than theories. Neither of which can tell the whole picture compared to actually taking measurements.
You guys are debating something that can easily be measured, tested, and confirmed. Take the measurements and quite speculating.
Steve, I highly recommend you take some measurements to see what is really going on with your comb filtering. You may be surprised.
I agree with the less is more philosophy and hate putting anything in the signal path either, but honestly there are better ways to accomplish what you are shooting for.
For instance just let one unit play full range (or receive a full range signal), this will preserve your highs, then augment the bottom end with some slightly larger woofers that can give back the lost lows.
Use a first order network on the low frequency drivers and allow them to cross in the 150 to 300Hz range. Wavelengths down there are much longer and slight shifts in phase are really hard to detect.
This will also compensate for the baffle step loss.
A woofer that plays a little lower would also allow the subs to be crossed lower too. This would really help sub-woofer integration and minimize placement issues.
I would also opt for adding a capacitor bundle to the full range driver (150 to 200uF) to keep it from getting its *** beat off with low frequency input. And if you are noticing a veil in doing this you are using the wrong kind of caps.
You could also consider manipulation of the digital domain to amplify areas of loss to help compensate for the comb filtering effects or lack of bottom end.
On a positive your enclosures look really nice, but with your construction technics and cost, plus the cost of the Jordan's, your design may wind up in a price point where competition is going to make your concept a tough sell.
You can heed my advise here or dismiss it as simply my opinion. It will bother none the less either way, but if this is what you are taking to market I wish you luck (honestly and not sarcastically).
Regardless of taste or design philosophy importance, Jim's technical assessment is correct.
With a 3 inch center to center spacing the comb filtering will be clearly a problem.
And he was only talking about driver to driver cancellation. There will be even greater cancellation from the top woofer to the bottom woofer as the center to center spacing there is about 9 inches.
I have worked extensively with line sources and recently with a lot of full range drivers, and I say full range meaning that they are feed a full range signal not that they are capable of playing full range, which none of these really are.
I recently took measurements on a 3" TB driver. Then added a second driver with a center to center just barely over 3".
It added 6db across the board except in the highs where the comb filtering gobbled up the high frequencies. 20kHz was 6db down and this was with a mic position that was in the center of the two drivers and 1 meter away.
A long line of 3" woofers, and I have used as many as 48 of them per side in some designs in double columns, will have enough comb filtering to keep them from even playing over about 3kHz with any effectiveness.
Secondly, simulations are little more than theories. Neither of which can tell the whole picture compared to actually taking measurements.
You guys are debating something that can easily be measured, tested, and confirmed. Take the measurements and quite speculating.
Steve, I highly recommend you take some measurements to see what is really going on with your comb filtering. You may be surprised.
I agree with the less is more philosophy and hate putting anything in the signal path either, but honestly there are better ways to accomplish what you are shooting for.
For instance just let one unit play full range (or receive a full range signal), this will preserve your highs, then augment the bottom end with some slightly larger woofers that can give back the lost lows.
Use a first order network on the low frequency drivers and allow them to cross in the 150 to 300Hz range. Wavelengths down there are much longer and slight shifts in phase are really hard to detect.
This will also compensate for the baffle step loss.
A woofer that plays a little lower would also allow the subs to be crossed lower too. This would really help sub-woofer integration and minimize placement issues.
I would also opt for adding a capacitor bundle to the full range driver (150 to 200uF) to keep it from getting its *** beat off with low frequency input. And if you are noticing a veil in doing this you are using the wrong kind of caps.
You could also consider manipulation of the digital domain to amplify areas of loss to help compensate for the comb filtering effects or lack of bottom end.
On a positive your enclosures look really nice, but with your construction technics and cost, plus the cost of the Jordan's, your design may wind up in a price point where competition is going to make your concept a tough sell.
You can heed my advise here or dismiss it as simply my opinion. It will bother none the less either way, but if this is what you are taking to market I wish you luck (honestly and not sarcastically).
Re: Funny Thread
Danny, thank you very much for your kind comments and suggestions.
In your country I believe that you have a saying: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Almost without exception, those who have listened to the Nonsuch 4 are of the view that it ain't broke. So allow me to attempt to explain a little of the why.
Firstly, you're absolutely right. I must get these speakers measured as soon as possible. Actually, I did get measurements taken professionally for my original System IV and of course Paul Messenger had measurements taken when he reviewed the speaker for HI-Fi Choice (Sept 1990). Unfortunately, these measurements were taken on axis. Nevertheless they did bare out the flat response that theory predicts and that I quoted in a previous posting. I'll repeat the theoretical results below:
If we feed the parameters into the program - 4 drivers, 50mm diameter, 25mm gap, distance to listener 3m - we find the following:-
On axis: Flat Response (+0dB/-1dB, 0-20kHz)
5 cms vertically off axis: gentle roll-off to -2dB at 20kHz
8 cms vertically off axis: gentle roll-off to -3dB at 20kHz
10 cms vertically off axis: gentle roll-off to -5dB at 20kHz
16 cms vertically off axis: gentle roll-off to -11dB at 20kHz
Even so, the drive units have been improved substantially over the last 13 years and the original measurements were only made on axis, so for these reasons there is an imperative to take some new measurements for the Nonsuch 4s.
In truth however, this imperative is a marketing exercise as no-one who has listened, young or old, male or female has commented on any perceived lack of high frequencies. On the contrary, the general feeling is that the treble is lifelike, sweet and refreshingly better than the usual "hi-fi tizz".
If I might comment on one or two of the specific issues that you raised (and please don't take offence. I accept that you have worked extensively with line sources - so have I) ...
I'm using 2" drivers and center to center they are 3", which is as close as I can get them. You've done exceptionally well to get 3" diameter units at the same center to center distance.
Also, 1 meter away is too close. My theoretical results (above) are for a distance of 3m. At 1m you will get considerably more comb filtering.
Well yes, of course they would. That's why I've limited my line to four.
And of course "actually taking measurements" can't tell the whole picture compared to actually listening.
Mind you, it does seem that this particular modelling package does pretty well. Perhaps you could take the measured results that you took for your 3" units and compare them with the theoretical results predicted by the program at Vertical Polar Response - Line Array. I think that it would be of interest to many of us to know how accurate this modelling software is.
On your suggestions for improving the design of my loudspeakers, thank you. They seem like good ideas. Still, I think that I'll stick with what I've got.
Thank you for that genuine praise. And you do have some justification when it comes to making a critique of the looks. At least you've seen the pictures.
Now it may surprise you to hear this but at the High End Show in Frankfurt (where the speakers were launched) I got the distinct impression that it's the competition who are worried that my concept is going to make their products a tough sell.
Thank you for wishing me good luck. It will be great when I can get over to your part of the world and, perhaps, sit down with you (standing up is a no-no) to actually listen to the Nonsuch 4s with the Little Awesome subs.
Steve
PS: Actually the units aren't Jordans they're Bandors
Danny, thank you very much for your kind comments and suggestions.
In your country I believe that you have a saying: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Almost without exception, those who have listened to the Nonsuch 4 are of the view that it ain't broke. So allow me to attempt to explain a little of the why.
Firstly, you're absolutely right. I must get these speakers measured as soon as possible. Actually, I did get measurements taken professionally for my original System IV and of course Paul Messenger had measurements taken when he reviewed the speaker for HI-Fi Choice (Sept 1990). Unfortunately, these measurements were taken on axis. Nevertheless they did bare out the flat response that theory predicts and that I quoted in a previous posting. I'll repeat the theoretical results below:
If we feed the parameters into the program - 4 drivers, 50mm diameter, 25mm gap, distance to listener 3m - we find the following:-
On axis: Flat Response (+0dB/-1dB, 0-20kHz)
5 cms vertically off axis: gentle roll-off to -2dB at 20kHz
8 cms vertically off axis: gentle roll-off to -3dB at 20kHz
10 cms vertically off axis: gentle roll-off to -5dB at 20kHz
16 cms vertically off axis: gentle roll-off to -11dB at 20kHz
Even so, the drive units have been improved substantially over the last 13 years and the original measurements were only made on axis, so for these reasons there is an imperative to take some new measurements for the Nonsuch 4s.
In truth however, this imperative is a marketing exercise as no-one who has listened, young or old, male or female has commented on any perceived lack of high frequencies. On the contrary, the general feeling is that the treble is lifelike, sweet and refreshingly better than the usual "hi-fi tizz".
If I might comment on one or two of the specific issues that you raised (and please don't take offence. I accept that you have worked extensively with line sources - so have I) ...
I'm using 2" drivers and center to center they are 3", which is as close as I can get them. You've done exceptionally well to get 3" diameter units at the same center to center distance.
Also, 1 meter away is too close. My theoretical results (above) are for a distance of 3m. At 1m you will get considerably more comb filtering.
Well yes, of course they would. That's why I've limited my line to four.
And of course "actually taking measurements" can't tell the whole picture compared to actually listening.
Mind you, it does seem that this particular modelling package does pretty well. Perhaps you could take the measured results that you took for your 3" units and compare them with the theoretical results predicted by the program at Vertical Polar Response - Line Array. I think that it would be of interest to many of us to know how accurate this modelling software is.
On your suggestions for improving the design of my loudspeakers, thank you. They seem like good ideas. Still, I think that I'll stick with what I've got.
Thank you for that genuine praise. And you do have some justification when it comes to making a critique of the looks. At least you've seen the pictures.
Now it may surprise you to hear this but at the High End Show in Frankfurt (where the speakers were launched) I got the distinct impression that it's the competition who are worried that my concept is going to make their products a tough sell.
Thank you for wishing me good luck. It will be great when I can get over to your part of the world and, perhaps, sit down with you (standing up is a no-no) to actually listen to the Nonsuch 4s with the Little Awesome subs.
Steve
PS: Actually the units aren't Jordans they're Bandors
Speakers
Yea, we say that plenty down here in Texas.
If you like it and others like it then I would leave it as is if you can sell it that way.
Few designs are without some type of limitations.
I saw your results before and I think it to be a pretty narrow window.
If Jim Griffin were setting on a couch (I think he is about 6'2" or 6'3" or something, Jim?) next to my wife (for some odd reason) who is only 5'3" tall, that could be as much as 12" and at least 8" to 10" difference in listening height.
Well if you can limit it to just the top octave most won't ever notice.
The 4" full range drivers that I recently had custom built for one of our clients sounds to die for, but rolls off hard less than half way through the top octave. So far I have yet to have anyone notice that by listening to them.
This is true. The further away you get the less of a problem it will be.
Measurements will immediately identify a problem for you that one might dismiss as room response problems in listening.
Room response is a whole new ball game. It can ruin even a speaker with great response. I have yet to see room response correct off axis problems or lobbing errors though. Plus, if it sounds great in your room it may not sound great in someone else's.
If you have something good stick with it, but don't set back like its the answer. Keep trying new things and you will find new solutions that can result in better and better results.
Years ago we sold speakers commercially to stores. We exhibited at the WCES thinking we would show up a lot of more expensive speakers and we did.
We received great praises throughout the whole show, even from other loudspeaker companies.
But at the time store owners weren't looking for speakers that offered the most bang for the buck. Speakers as good as ours were looked at as if they would take away sales of more expensive speakers that they carried.
Why would the store sell a speaker they make $500. to $1,000. profit on when they can sell a pair of speakers that they could make $2,000. to $3,000. profit on?
Stores were looking for new products in the growing home theater market just to keep the doors open too.
We started offering our speakers in kits and direct sales to the consumer and never looked back. We found a target market that appreciates what we offer.
That is the real key in this business much more so than who can build the best mouse trap.
Just look at how many crappy speakers are sold world wide.
You have to find a niche. Find yours and run with it.
I look forward to that. Maybe one day that day will come.
Yea, we say that plenty down here in Texas.
If you like it and others like it then I would leave it as is if you can sell it that way.
Few designs are without some type of limitations.
I saw your results before and I think it to be a pretty narrow window.
If Jim Griffin were setting on a couch (I think he is about 6'2" or 6'3" or something, Jim?) next to my wife (for some odd reason) who is only 5'3" tall, that could be as much as 12" and at least 8" to 10" difference in listening height.
Well if you can limit it to just the top octave most won't ever notice.
The 4" full range drivers that I recently had custom built for one of our clients sounds to die for, but rolls off hard less than half way through the top octave. So far I have yet to have anyone notice that by listening to them.
This is true. The further away you get the less of a problem it will be.
Measurements will immediately identify a problem for you that one might dismiss as room response problems in listening.
Room response is a whole new ball game. It can ruin even a speaker with great response. I have yet to see room response correct off axis problems or lobbing errors though. Plus, if it sounds great in your room it may not sound great in someone else's.
If you have something good stick with it, but don't set back like its the answer. Keep trying new things and you will find new solutions that can result in better and better results.
Years ago we sold speakers commercially to stores. We exhibited at the WCES thinking we would show up a lot of more expensive speakers and we did.
We received great praises throughout the whole show, even from other loudspeaker companies.
But at the time store owners weren't looking for speakers that offered the most bang for the buck. Speakers as good as ours were looked at as if they would take away sales of more expensive speakers that they carried.
Why would the store sell a speaker they make $500. to $1,000. profit on when they can sell a pair of speakers that they could make $2,000. to $3,000. profit on?
Stores were looking for new products in the growing home theater market just to keep the doors open too.
We started offering our speakers in kits and direct sales to the consumer and never looked back. We found a target market that appreciates what we offer.
That is the real key in this business much more so than who can build the best mouse trap.
Just look at how many crappy speakers are sold world wide.
You have to find a niche. Find yours and run with it.
I look forward to that. Maybe one day that day will come.
Re: Speakers
I believe that we're all looking for the same thing but different speakers have different compromises. Any speaker that is small enough to be "room-acceptable" must have compromises.
I have chosen a set of compromises and need to find the people who will love the sound of the choices I've made and who can afford to buy them. That is my market niche.
If I was selling PCs, no problem. I would do a Dell and sell directly to the public. These days, the Internet makes this process easier than at any time in history. I can also see how this approach could work for you, as you sell your speakers in kit form. However, in the case of Seventh Veil, no one is going to 'splash the cash' without listening to the speakers and of course they're right not to.
Perhaps in the UK I could sell directly to the public. People could drive down to me or I could arrange home demonstrations for them. This could work well.
But the market is worldwide. It's not possible for me to take this approach with an interested party in Tokyo, New York, Rome or Texas.
So, I do need to sell through dealers. I'm tempted to sell directly to dealers, worldwide, rather than use distributors - another link in the chain that would make the products more expensive still. At least then I would be talking to the people who are demonstrating to the public.
This is a tricky issue. I'm coming out to Denver, CO in September to try to start the ball rolling, Stateside. In the meantime, if anyone has any ideas on the marketing of a unique, high-end product like mine I'd love to hear them.
With thanks
Steve
PS: Do any of you guys live in the Denver area? We could get together.
Ain't that the truth, Danny?Danny said:
I believe that we're all looking for the same thing but different speakers have different compromises. Any speaker that is small enough to be "room-acceptable" must have compromises.
I have chosen a set of compromises and need to find the people who will love the sound of the choices I've made and who can afford to buy them. That is my market niche.
You're spot on here. This IS the key. I'm pleased that you have found a way that works for your company. I'm sure that 'word of mouth' and the reputation of GR Research plays a big part in that success. Any small manufacturer who has found a way to compete with the 'big boys' has my respect and admiration. As Seventh Veil Loudspeakers starts off, this is the most difficult area.
If I was selling PCs, no problem. I would do a Dell and sell directly to the public. These days, the Internet makes this process easier than at any time in history. I can also see how this approach could work for you, as you sell your speakers in kit form. However, in the case of Seventh Veil, no one is going to 'splash the cash' without listening to the speakers and of course they're right not to.
Perhaps in the UK I could sell directly to the public. People could drive down to me or I could arrange home demonstrations for them. This could work well.
But the market is worldwide. It's not possible for me to take this approach with an interested party in Tokyo, New York, Rome or Texas.
So, I do need to sell through dealers. I'm tempted to sell directly to dealers, worldwide, rather than use distributors - another link in the chain that would make the products more expensive still. At least then I would be talking to the people who are demonstrating to the public.
This is a tricky issue. I'm coming out to Denver, CO in September to try to start the ball rolling, Stateside. In the meantime, if anyone has any ideas on the marketing of a unique, high-end product like mine I'd love to hear them.
With thanks
Steve
PS: Do any of you guys live in the Denver area? We could get together.
Hi Steve
Manger uses the following approach: You can test any of their models for ten days at home. They come delivered in a flight-case and will be picked up again as well. All the customer has to pay for is the transport expenses which will be subtracted from the sale price if he actually buys a pair later on.
Nubert, another German manufacturer (who regularly gets good reviews), is selling to the customer directly. They have a four-week return policy.
I think this is the way for doing busines for small manufacturers.
And last but not least: It does alwasy help to get good reviews !
Regards
Charles
Manger uses the following approach: You can test any of their models for ten days at home. They come delivered in a flight-case and will be picked up again as well. All the customer has to pay for is the transport expenses which will be subtracted from the sale price if he actually buys a pair later on.
Nubert, another German manufacturer (who regularly gets good reviews), is selling to the customer directly. They have a four-week return policy.
I think this is the way for doing busines for small manufacturers.
And last but not least: It does alwasy help to get good reviews !
Regards
Charles
Thanks Charles. That's extremely interesting and I will look into it. I think shipping costs could be expensive for some regions so I may still need someone in the US (for example) to hold the product and send out to interested parties.phase_accurate said:
Well, I do have something in the pipeline. A leading speaker reviewer came into our room at the Frankfurt Show and said "Steve, you have a really good sound here". His editor has agreed to doing a review so I will be arranging it soon. Finger nail chewing time.😱
Meanwhile, from a chat I had with a reviewer from Finland's only hi-fi magazine, I believe that we will get a good write-up there. Is anyone out there from Finland?
Other than that, many reviewers came into our room at Frankfurt. They took photos and notes and asked questions. It's difficult to know whether we will get mentioned in their "show round-up" but I live in hope.
These days, I think that the various web-based review sites are also good. Perhaps, I could get some reviews on-line.
Steve
Speakers
Hey Steve,
I visited the Bandor web site and had a look at those drivers.
http://www.bandor.com/home_frame.htm
Very impressive specs!
How in the world do that get the Fs that low on such small drivers?
Those drivers play pretty damn low. The little 100 is capable of hitting a -3db of 45Hz, but it does require a pretty good sized port for a little driver.
You just need to get them to get the center to center spacing on those 50's down to about 2.125" to 2.25" or less and you won't have so much comb filter problems and you could do a longer array.
Maybe they can do a 1.5" by 2.5" diameter diaphragm to keep the low Fs and get the close center to center?
On a separate note; the free in home auditions have worked great for us. We have had as many as 8 pairs on tour at once and sold lots of speakers because of the Internet forum reviews of those in home auditions.
Cheap too. Each person agrees to pay the shipping to the next person.
Plus, lots of great Internet forum reviews get the attention of a lot of bigger publications. I have had a lot of inquires from major publications lately.
Just get the exposure. If it sounds good it will go a long way.
There are also a lot of DIY gatherings and events over here right now that can give you really good exposure.
Hey Steve,
I visited the Bandor web site and had a look at those drivers.
http://www.bandor.com/home_frame.htm
Very impressive specs!
How in the world do that get the Fs that low on such small drivers?
Those drivers play pretty damn low. The little 100 is capable of hitting a -3db of 45Hz, but it does require a pretty good sized port for a little driver.
You just need to get them to get the center to center spacing on those 50's down to about 2.125" to 2.25" or less and you won't have so much comb filter problems and you could do a longer array.
Maybe they can do a 1.5" by 2.5" diameter diaphragm to keep the low Fs and get the close center to center?
On a separate note; the free in home auditions have worked great for us. We have had as many as 8 pairs on tour at once and sold lots of speakers because of the Internet forum reviews of those in home auditions.
Cheap too. Each person agrees to pay the shipping to the next person.
Plus, lots of great Internet forum reviews get the attention of a lot of bigger publications. I have had a lot of inquires from major publications lately.
Just get the exposure. If it sounds good it will go a long way.
There are also a lot of DIY gatherings and events over here right now that can give you really good exposure.
Re: Speakers
The 'Each person shipping to the next person' thing is a new slant. Something else to think about. I suppose that, in theory, it would halve freight costs when people don't buy. Does it work well in practice?
Do you charge people a refundable deposit when they take the speakers to cover any damage that they might cause and to further qualify the prospective buyers?
Many thanks for sharing your experiences
Steve
It would be difficult to get the centre to centre spacing significantly less than I get it now. I like your idea of the 1.5" x 2.5" though. That's certainly one for the future.Danny said:
Yes, I am fast coming to believe that this is the wave of the future. To be completely honest with you, this hadn't occurred to me before phase_accurate brought it up today. I'm rethinking my business plan.
The 'Each person shipping to the next person' thing is a new slant. Something else to think about. I suppose that, in theory, it would halve freight costs when people don't buy. Does it work well in practice?
Do you charge people a refundable deposit when they take the speakers to cover any damage that they might cause and to further qualify the prospective buyers?
... and stop spending so much time on the diyAudio forum?
Many thanks for sharing your experiences
Steve
WE ALL LOVE DOREEN...
Hi Steve,
If you allow an old rat to give you some advice:
If I were you I wouldn't spend too much cash on hi-fi shows abroad initially if at all.
I'd focus on the local market first.
Word of mouth is both the cheapest and most honest publicity one can ever get, some guys like myself just don't believe all they read in the press, thinking it's a paid review anyway on most occasions....
Back in the days I was running my business in the audio field I always had good return from happy customers and unless you have the marketing clout the size of Coca-Cola I wouldn't even bother spending money advertising in mags and such.
It eventually all will grow naturally...
Good reviews in hi-fi rags may certainly help putting your name on the map, it already is to some entend since I did remember the Seventh Veil name from a magazine...but one bad review is going to mean major trouble.
Economy is slow nowadays and if you're running a one man show,
I for one would feel more relaxed if I'd have something to fall back on when things go sour.
I always encourage enterprise but there's no crystal ball to predict to future here...
Best of luck,😉
Hi Steve,
If you allow an old rat to give you some advice:
If I were you I wouldn't spend too much cash on hi-fi shows abroad initially if at all.
I'd focus on the local market first.
Word of mouth is both the cheapest and most honest publicity one can ever get, some guys like myself just don't believe all they read in the press, thinking it's a paid review anyway on most occasions....
Back in the days I was running my business in the audio field I always had good return from happy customers and unless you have the marketing clout the size of Coca-Cola I wouldn't even bother spending money advertising in mags and such.
It eventually all will grow naturally...
Good reviews in hi-fi rags may certainly help putting your name on the map, it already is to some entend since I did remember the Seventh Veil name from a magazine...but one bad review is going to mean major trouble.
Economy is slow nowadays and if you're running a one man show,
I for one would feel more relaxed if I'd have something to fall back on when things go sour.
I always encourage enterprise but there's no crystal ball to predict to future here...
Best of luck,😉
Re: WE ALL LOVE DOREEN...
Thanks, Frank
Yes, it absolutely amazes me. The good old System IV is still quite famous. It never even hit the market. I guess that it's the fact that it was so unusual that made it memorable.fdegrove said:
Well I am an Aikidoist so I suppose I can always fall back on my sword.
Thanks, Frank
In Home auditions
We don't ship around Alpha LS's (ha, ha) or anything very heavy, just small two ways.
I try to keep a pair circulating in a given area as long as possible. Keep shipping distances short to minimize time that UPS keeps them, and keep shipping cost down. Typically shipping cost is between $20. and $30.
That is not to bad to get to live with a new pair of speakers for a week.
Even those not interested in buying like to try them out and often write up really good reviews. Our forum at the Audio Circle is full of them. The Critics Circle has quite a few too. Several can also be found at the Audio Asylum and at the Home Theater Forum.
It does work well in practice, very well.
Here are the guidelines for the free in home audition, and yes they are secured with a credit card: http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9523
http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9643
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=1109
Agreed!
Yep, anyone can buy an ad. Good word of mouth and good Internet publicity can't be bought, and goes much further.
We don't ship around Alpha LS's (ha, ha) or anything very heavy, just small two ways.
I try to keep a pair circulating in a given area as long as possible. Keep shipping distances short to minimize time that UPS keeps them, and keep shipping cost down. Typically shipping cost is between $20. and $30.
That is not to bad to get to live with a new pair of speakers for a week.
Even those not interested in buying like to try them out and often write up really good reviews. Our forum at the Audio Circle is full of them. The Critics Circle has quite a few too. Several can also be found at the Audio Asylum and at the Home Theater Forum.
It does work well in practice, very well.
Here are the guidelines for the free in home audition, and yes they are secured with a credit card: http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9523
http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9643
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=1109
Agreed!
Yep, anyone can buy an ad. Good word of mouth and good Internet publicity can't be bought, and goes much further.
Re: In Home auditions
Thanks Danny.
It looks like the home demo system will be the way to go, although my shipping costs will be higher than yours as the speakers are probably heavier and there's a sub (or subs) as well.
I'm currently talking to a couple of flight-case manufacturers as the products are quite heavy and will need some protection in transit. The only problem is that the flight-cases themselves add quite a few kilos (= "quite a few" x 2.2 lbs) to the weight.
Wow, all these forums. I didn't know that they were all out there. This brings my list to eight forums now (although I don't participate in most of them). You must spend a large part of your time on the forums. I suppose that from a marketing perspective, this can be more effective than spending your time on the road visiting dealers.
How do you distribute your larger products? Do you use a more conventional distributor/dealer or dealer network? Do you sell overseas and, if so, do you have anything on this side of the pond that I can listen too?
Anyway, many thanks
Steve
Thanks Danny.
It looks like the home demo system will be the way to go, although my shipping costs will be higher than yours as the speakers are probably heavier and there's a sub (or subs) as well.
I'm currently talking to a couple of flight-case manufacturers as the products are quite heavy and will need some protection in transit. The only problem is that the flight-cases themselves add quite a few kilos (= "quite a few" x 2.2 lbs) to the weight.
Wow, all these forums. I didn't know that they were all out there. This brings my list to eight forums now (although I don't participate in most of them). You must spend a large part of your time on the forums. I suppose that from a marketing perspective, this can be more effective than spending your time on the road visiting dealers.
How do you distribute your larger products? Do you use a more conventional distributor/dealer or dealer network? Do you sell overseas and, if so, do you have anything on this side of the pond that I can listen too?
Anyway, many thanks
Steve
Someone's written a review.
The Seventh Veil system was on loan to a dealer (Progressive Audio of Kent) for a few days and one of the customers was sufficiently impressed to write a review: Review of Seventh Veil's Nonsuch 4s with Double Awesome subwoofers
I thought that, in the light of the debate over what these speakers would sound like based on the technical aspects of the design, some people might be interested in the views of an completely neutral outsider who has actually listened. Shame the guy isn't in the market for new speakers - his own system has Martin Logan electrostatics.
Steve
PS: I've arranged for the speakers to be set up at a place in Putney so I'm looking forward to meeting pinkmouse, Vikash and anyone else who can make the gathering. Dhaen, if you really get motoring we might even have a decent power amplifier to listen to (assuming we can get it through the door).
The Seventh Veil system was on loan to a dealer (Progressive Audio of Kent) for a few days and one of the customers was sufficiently impressed to write a review: Review of Seventh Veil's Nonsuch 4s with Double Awesome subwoofers
I thought that, in the light of the debate over what these speakers would sound like based on the technical aspects of the design, some people might be interested in the views of an completely neutral outsider who has actually listened. Shame the guy isn't in the market for new speakers - his own system has Martin Logan electrostatics.
Steve
PS: I've arranged for the speakers to be set up at a place in Putney so I'm looking forward to meeting pinkmouse, Vikash and anyone else who can make the gathering. Dhaen, if you really get motoring we might even have a decent power amplifier to listen to (assuming we can get it through the door).
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