so, does a full range driver have worse time alignment/phase alignment than a 6db crossed speaker (assuming centers lined up) ?
Seeing the phase changing, that kind of blows my thoughts that proper phase helps a full range driver contribute to improved intelligibility (to me)…………….
I know I heard more delay watching blade runner 2049 through my TB w8-2145 versus jbl 12" 2-way (not aligned at all, no 6db crossover, etc)
Seeing the phase changing, that kind of blows my thoughts that proper phase helps a full range driver contribute to improved intelligibility (to me)…………….
I know I heard more delay watching blade runner 2049 through my TB w8-2145 versus jbl 12" 2-way (not aligned at all, no 6db crossover, etc)
You lost me... a single full range can have excellent phase, tracking it's frequency curve. As long as there's not too much break-up up top. Whizzers won't always help though.
A speaker like that Dunlavy you showed can have excellent phase over a wide(r) area as it will extend much lower and probably higher while being clean.
If that leads to better intelligibility wil depend on way more factors than phase alone. For instance how it works within the room.
Then there's the two ears we use to listen to our speakers. Making it more troublesome to 'catch' the true phase due to the cross talk from right speaker reaching the left ear and vice versa. Just measure a stereo pair at a single ear position with dummy head in place to see what that does for your measurement... That's what the ears get, not what our careful setup mic position measures. I'm afraid the game is far more complicated than a phase plot...
To establish anything useful listen to one speaker in mono at a time. That would show its true potential. Taking it outside would even be better.
Stereo largely is an illusion and depending on many factors. Which makes it fun to play with to get a stronger illusion 🙂. Just my 2 cents...
A speaker like that Dunlavy you showed can have excellent phase over a wide(r) area as it will extend much lower and probably higher while being clean.
If that leads to better intelligibility wil depend on way more factors than phase alone. For instance how it works within the room.
Then there's the two ears we use to listen to our speakers. Making it more troublesome to 'catch' the true phase due to the cross talk from right speaker reaching the left ear and vice versa. Just measure a stereo pair at a single ear position with dummy head in place to see what that does for your measurement... That's what the ears get, not what our careful setup mic position measures. I'm afraid the game is far more complicated than a phase plot...
To establish anything useful listen to one speaker in mono at a time. That would show its true potential. Taking it outside would even be better.
Stereo largely is an illusion and depending on many factors. Which makes it fun to play with to get a stronger illusion 🙂. Just my 2 cents...
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Until lately (last year), I've always used just 1 speaker, but yes, I've seen the 2khz dip from stereo speakers measurements (papers) ...………… I had tremendous luck with a foam wall as a barrier and stereo speakers (ambiophonics), but that is not for this topic.
And yes, when someone here argued about the 10f fast setup needing to be moved back more, he mentioned it was easier to hear outdoors than in. I think much of larger driver full range imaging is due to less hf bouncing around the room.
I've found intelligibility better on full range drivers and 6db time/phase aligned speakers (2 way thiel, 3 way thiel, and my own b102/cat378). better than 24db, but 5khz crossover point 24db was really close and had nice sparkle.
Same room, same distance, same placement, same seat, etc.
And yes, when someone here argued about the 10f fast setup needing to be moved back more, he mentioned it was easier to hear outdoors than in. I think much of larger driver full range imaging is due to less hf bouncing around the room.
I've found intelligibility better on full range drivers and 6db time/phase aligned speakers (2 way thiel, 3 way thiel, and my own b102/cat378). better than 24db, but 5khz crossover point 24db was really close and had nice sparkle.
Same room, same distance, same placement, same seat, etc.
I'm all for a flat phase at listening spot too, but I use a bit of (software) help to get there (below ~300 Hz that is, the top end does fine by itself). I like it when the bottom end is aligned too, that's so exiting to hear and my goal has been to get that at the listening position (in room). But after many experiments I have come to realize it isn't all about phase. It's role is much smaller than I anticipated. The more room I've "removed", the better the measurements show me what I'm hearing. The more clear all warts in the illusion become. Some reflections help to hide the cross talk. I've found other successful ways to work around it, based on ambiophonics but also other tools like quite simple mid/side EQ tweaks. It is quite stunning what can be achieved.
The room is a big part of what we hear and also how used we are to hearing our speakers in that room. Just record a song at the listening position and play it back on headphones, or if you dare, use the same speakers for playback. Twice the room effects! Hard to unlearn I tell you! You'll truly hear the room for quite a while after that! Or at least I did. I've been on a (personal) mission or crusade for quite a while to find my own truth in audio. It has worked well to get very satisfying results. I will keep on that journey for as long as it's fun! It's never a punishment to listen to good music, is it?
(Whatever good music means to you 😉)
The room is a big part of what we hear and also how used we are to hearing our speakers in that room. Just record a song at the listening position and play it back on headphones, or if you dare, use the same speakers for playback. Twice the room effects! Hard to unlearn I tell you! You'll truly hear the room for quite a while after that! Or at least I did. I've been on a (personal) mission or crusade for quite a while to find my own truth in audio. It has worked well to get very satisfying results. I will keep on that journey for as long as it's fun! It's never a punishment to listen to good music, is it?
(Whatever good music means to you 😉)
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I agree, moving 1 speaker around a room and hearing where the sound “seems” to come from can be a shock.
But our brain works hard at yanking a voice out of the room noise that a microphone can pick up.
But our brain works hard at yanking a voice out of the room noise that a microphone can pick up.