Solen.ca sells atc woofers, wicked expensive, maybe you can get them to drop ship it to you. It should be easier to get in the UK.
Room measurement: there is ETF as well, you get a lot in the freeware version already. For rt60 I think you have to pay, but it's cheap.
Well I reinstated the passive XO I used with a few tweaks to allow for the woofer change.
It sounds less open than the active version, not as much detail and the dynamics are somewhat compressed - I suspect because its a serial XO and I'm only using 200w into 8ohm to power the lot rather than tri-amping as before. I also scrapped the DRC for passive version for testing but later introduced it after I'd ruled out that it could be causing problems.
Its next to impossible to do an A/B with the digital active XO but I really don't think it would make any difference since I'm still hearing what I described earlier. So I can rule out any chance that PC XO is doing untoward things to the audio, I'll be glad to go back actually since the passive version is audibly inferior.
I've also downloaded the demo versions of smaart and ETF to have a play with when I get a chance.
I'm now looking to buy the ATC 8" when and if I get the go ahead from them.
Third time lucky? 🙂
It sounds less open than the active version, not as much detail and the dynamics are somewhat compressed - I suspect because its a serial XO and I'm only using 200w into 8ohm to power the lot rather than tri-amping as before. I also scrapped the DRC for passive version for testing but later introduced it after I'd ruled out that it could be causing problems.
Its next to impossible to do an A/B with the digital active XO but I really don't think it would make any difference since I'm still hearing what I described earlier. So I can rule out any chance that PC XO is doing untoward things to the audio, I'll be glad to go back actually since the passive version is audibly inferior.
I've also downloaded the demo versions of smaart and ETF to have a play with when I get a chance.
I'm now looking to buy the ATC 8" when and if I get the go ahead from them.
Third time lucky? 🙂
Hi Shin,
I am still not convinced that your problem is not due to an overlooked detail of x-o work.
Since you have that PC setup, you can do quick experiments:
- take the metal woofer and equalize the breakup mode out flat, w/o the LPF to the mid of course or else you won't see the breakup in the measurements. Nevermind it's many octaves away, due to the equal loudness curves it might have more effect than anticipated.
- check your time alignment between woofer and ATC. Usually done by reversing polarity on one of them and check the depth of the FR notch, the deeper the better. I don't know how well this works at low frequencies though (I do this for mid-tweeter only, where you easily get -15 to -20 dB w/rev pol.). You might have to compare arrival time of impulses or check maximum of the time-energy curves which is harder to do.
If you really want to change drivers again, consider
- using a dirt cheap PP or paper woofer first, to check if the integration problem goes away (in other words, check the hypothesis that metal doesn't mix with PP by using *cheap* and quick to get material)
- if you can't find the ATC woofers you might consider the SS18W/8543, which is a very well reputed PP driver, and it's quite affordable at USD107 from Madisound. Not in stock though, I'm still waiting for mine...
I am still not convinced that your problem is not due to an overlooked detail of x-o work.
Since you have that PC setup, you can do quick experiments:
- take the metal woofer and equalize the breakup mode out flat, w/o the LPF to the mid of course or else you won't see the breakup in the measurements. Nevermind it's many octaves away, due to the equal loudness curves it might have more effect than anticipated.
- check your time alignment between woofer and ATC. Usually done by reversing polarity on one of them and check the depth of the FR notch, the deeper the better. I don't know how well this works at low frequencies though (I do this for mid-tweeter only, where you easily get -15 to -20 dB w/rev pol.). You might have to compare arrival time of impulses or check maximum of the time-energy curves which is harder to do.
If you really want to change drivers again, consider
- using a dirt cheap PP or paper woofer first, to check if the integration problem goes away (in other words, check the hypothesis that metal doesn't mix with PP by using *cheap* and quick to get material)
- if you can't find the ATC woofers you might consider the SS18W/8543, which is a very well reputed PP driver, and it's quite affordable at USD107 from Madisound. Not in stock though, I'm still waiting for mine...
ShinOBIWAN said:
Less open and less dynamics could just be the components if the difference is tolorable. Series XO componenets take a lot of power, for resistors, it's best to use power rating no less than 50W unless they are used for Zobel. For Caps, The Mcap Supreme silver/oil would sound more open, detailed, and dynamic than many others. ref http://home.hetnet.nl/~brian.gee/Cap.html I haven't tested the golds, but trust it would be even better.
Did you post your passive XO somewhere earlier?
One more thing: Use foil inductors, the larger guage the better. This made a day and night's difference in one of my designs with just this one change.
I switched back over to the PC XO earlier and I must say the music sounds fantastic. I guess it took the passive to make me realise that.
I'm adjusting to the sound now I think and it wasn't really a big deal to start with (I just made it sound worst than it was possibly). Everyone thats listened to them so far hasn't picked up on anything even when prompted so I guess I just have to chill out a little. There's definitely more to be had though - I'm playing with different methods of DRC and getting improvements all the time. The XO is pretty much perfect from a sound point of view and the measurements are impressive also, they can be bettered but it doesn't make the sound any better only worse so fancy graphs ain't everything.
Still not turned my back on the ATC bass drivers as a replacement for the Excel's but they will be incorporated into the existing cabinets and then later on I'll move them over to the next project since I'll be using a couple of ATC mids in that but with something like a big ribbon (AC G1 or more possibly Raven R3.2MMX if I get some saving done) That's for next year though. So for now I'll finish these up and enjoy them until the bug bites again! 😉
I'll post pictures when I get a new camera but until then thanks to all for the help and support given throughout this one.
I'm adjusting to the sound now I think and it wasn't really a big deal to start with (I just made it sound worst than it was possibly). Everyone thats listened to them so far hasn't picked up on anything even when prompted so I guess I just have to chill out a little. There's definitely more to be had though - I'm playing with different methods of DRC and getting improvements all the time. The XO is pretty much perfect from a sound point of view and the measurements are impressive also, they can be bettered but it doesn't make the sound any better only worse so fancy graphs ain't everything.
Still not turned my back on the ATC bass drivers as a replacement for the Excel's but they will be incorporated into the existing cabinets and then later on I'll move them over to the next project since I'll be using a couple of ATC mids in that but with something like a big ribbon (AC G1 or more possibly Raven R3.2MMX if I get some saving done) That's for next year though. So for now I'll finish these up and enjoy them until the bug bites again! 😉
I'll post pictures when I get a new camera but until then thanks to all for the help and support given throughout this one.
UPDATE:
My ATC SB75-234SC arrived today!
Spent all today playing 🙂
I decided to give them a go in the cabinets originally built for the Excel W22's. They've got 55ltrs to work in and from the modelling I did before they arrived this is fine for them.
I've had to mod the driver recess slightly since the driver flange is deeper and slightly larger in diameter - easy stuff though and I that sorted in a couple of hours.
Its taken me a few hours to make alterations to the crossover and I suspect I can get even better results with a full rebuild of the bass section. I've also gone with sealed again simply by blocking up the port since the SB75 sounded best like this.
And the difference after all this?
WOW! Is all I can say.
Everything just seems to really flow now, all you can hear is the music and its completely believable with good quality recordings, soundstaging is so real in terms of dimensions and the detail is quite simply the best I've heard bar none. Gone is that slight reluctance that I had between the Seas and ATC mid. The tightness of the bass is also incredible, very dry sounding with no overhang or bloom on bass notes, which is just the way I like it.
I've also noticed a deeper soundstage and everything sounds a little lighter and quicker making the whole speaker more dynamic and 'free' sounding.
The ATC also goes very loud, definitely around 5dB more headroom than the Seas had before you notice things becoming rough and congested.
I've really out done myself on this one. I can't get over how well it now sounds just from a driver swap out. Earlier I was talking about starting another big project next year but I think I'll have these for some time to come regardless of what comes and goes in the future - they are now wonderful speakers that are just perfect for me. I simply can't find any fault with the sound and that rare.
Actually there is one thing thats missing and that's the really low stuff but to be honest I don't care at the moment! Perhaps when I try them with HT it will be another story 😉 A suitable sub is definitely on the cards.
Its amazing when you get a project to finally 'click' and this has in a big way.
If anyone is in any doubt about ATC drivers, don't be. They've shamed the very best Seas has to offer and that difference has really shocked me. ATC for me, is in the top 3 driver manufacturers regardless of price.
PS. Any fellow DIY'ers in the UK are more than welcome to listen to these. I'd really love to show them off and if you like the 'monitor' type of sound I'm sure you'll love them too.
My ATC SB75-234SC arrived today!
Spent all today playing 🙂
I decided to give them a go in the cabinets originally built for the Excel W22's. They've got 55ltrs to work in and from the modelling I did before they arrived this is fine for them.
I've had to mod the driver recess slightly since the driver flange is deeper and slightly larger in diameter - easy stuff though and I that sorted in a couple of hours.
Its taken me a few hours to make alterations to the crossover and I suspect I can get even better results with a full rebuild of the bass section. I've also gone with sealed again simply by blocking up the port since the SB75 sounded best like this.
And the difference after all this?
WOW! Is all I can say.
Everything just seems to really flow now, all you can hear is the music and its completely believable with good quality recordings, soundstaging is so real in terms of dimensions and the detail is quite simply the best I've heard bar none. Gone is that slight reluctance that I had between the Seas and ATC mid. The tightness of the bass is also incredible, very dry sounding with no overhang or bloom on bass notes, which is just the way I like it.
I've also noticed a deeper soundstage and everything sounds a little lighter and quicker making the whole speaker more dynamic and 'free' sounding.
The ATC also goes very loud, definitely around 5dB more headroom than the Seas had before you notice things becoming rough and congested.
I've really out done myself on this one. I can't get over how well it now sounds just from a driver swap out. Earlier I was talking about starting another big project next year but I think I'll have these for some time to come regardless of what comes and goes in the future - they are now wonderful speakers that are just perfect for me. I simply can't find any fault with the sound and that rare.
Actually there is one thing thats missing and that's the really low stuff but to be honest I don't care at the moment! Perhaps when I try them with HT it will be another story 😉 A suitable sub is definitely on the cards.
Its amazing when you get a project to finally 'click' and this has in a big way.
If anyone is in any doubt about ATC drivers, don't be. They've shamed the very best Seas has to offer and that difference has really shocked me. ATC for me, is in the top 3 driver manufacturers regardless of price.
PS. Any fellow DIY'ers in the UK are more than welcome to listen to these. I'd really love to show them off and if you like the 'monitor' type of sound I'm sure you'll love them too.
Awesome stuff Shinobiwan! Godd on you for trustng your instincts and taking the plunge with the ATC. That's an awesome driver! Are you using 1 or 2 per channel?
David Gatti said:
Cheers David,
I was beginning to think that this project was only a small sucess and not living upto its potential. So I'm glad I took the risk on the ATC bass drivers.
Only using 1 per side, couldn't afford 2. Its a shame I wasted all that money on those L22's and W22's since I could have easily bought another couple of the ATC with that wasted cash. You live and learn I guess.
For those interested in Seas drivers, always go with the Basic range, the Excel stuff is rip-off. I've tested the L22's against W22's and the differences are very small indeed. It will probably be different for other models but I wouldn't bother again that's for sure. Dissappointing drivers all round when compared to the ATC.
I have a W22 for testing. Most people including me consider it a
midwoofer which includes midrange up to 1.5khz, maybe 2khz with
a steep slope. You were using it as a woofer, perhaps low pass
around 300-500hz. That is really not the optimum performance range
for the Seas just asking it to be a bass/midbass driver when it has
very nice sounding midrange qualities.
The ATC seems more like a woofer, a driver that probably falls
short if you ask it to be a midrange driver too. The ATC works
because it's a better fit in that design because the ATC soft dome
is the midrange.
Dual ATC woofers would be cool per cabinet. {ported?}
midwoofer which includes midrange up to 1.5khz, maybe 2khz with
a steep slope. You were using it as a woofer, perhaps low pass
around 300-500hz. That is really not the optimum performance range
for the Seas just asking it to be a bass/midbass driver when it has
very nice sounding midrange qualities.
The ATC seems more like a woofer, a driver that probably falls
short if you ask it to be a midrange driver too. The ATC works
because it's a better fit in that design because the ATC soft dome
is the midrange.
Dual ATC woofers would be cool per cabinet. {ported?}
thylantyr said:I have a W22 for testing. Most people including me consider it a
midwoofer which includes midrange up to 1.5khz, maybe 2khz with
a steep slope. You were using it as a woofer, perhaps low pass
around 300-500hz. That is really not the optimum performance range
for the Seas just asking it to be a bass/midbass driver when it has
very nice sounding midrange qualities.
The ATC seems more like a woofer, a driver that probably falls
short if you ask it to be a midrange driver too. The ATC works
because it's a better fit in that design because the ATC soft dome
is the midrange.
Dual ATC woofers would be cool per cabinet. {ported?}
the Seas W18 in fact has a very high F3 point sealed...
I'm not sure about the W22 but my guess is it's close to the same...
even with the low Fs the midbass area is lacking... namely due to excursion
Demo offer
Shin,
Where in the UK are you ? I am seriously interested in taking up your demo offer. I would, of course, bring a bottle of wine or champagne as a gift for your generosity.
I have been following this project with great interest.
Cheers Jack
Shin,
Where in the UK are you ? I am seriously interested in taking up your demo offer. I would, of course, bring a bottle of wine or champagne as a gift for your generosity.
I have been following this project with great interest.
Cheers Jack
Shin,
nice to hear about ATC bass . how much you paid (if not secret) ? who distributes them ?
Also there is almost no info on those drivers , like mms , qts ...
Even no good quality photos .Also what surround , rubber or foam and what LC or SC at the end means ?
Vil
p.s. still waiting for LCY . must be here soon .
nice to hear about ATC bass . how much you paid (if not secret) ? who distributes them ?
Also there is almost no info on those drivers , like mms , qts ...
Even no good quality photos .Also what surround , rubber or foam and what LC or SC at the end means ?
Vil
p.s. still waiting for LCY . must be here soon .
Vil said:
Hi Vil,
I paid just under £500 for the two 8" direct from ATC. I had to work pretty hard to get them because they don't deal with the public per say. In the end I dealt with Bob who is the logistics fellow down there and he arranged it all for me without having an account. Wilmslow Audio who are the sole supposed distributor of ATC in the UK cannot get the drivers anymore for some crazy reason, they never really gave me a straight answer and just blamed ATC, likewise ATC said they had an account and the drivers should be available to them since they are infact still in the driver market. All very strange stuff but I'm not bothered now since I've got mine 🙂
For the TS parameters download the ATC spec sheets here:
http://www.atc.gb.net/drive_units/studio_bass/driver_specifications_sb.xl.zip
Regarding the SC and LC variations, Bob told me that the main difference is the coil size, the SC is the short coil ie. underhung VC and the LC is the longcoil ie. overhung VC. He said there were also differences in the magnet size and flux density. The SC is the smaller magnet and the LC is the larger.
The SC(underhung VC) has the lowest distortion and so I chose that one.
Surround is rubber on my drivers. They are extremely well built also.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
That's almost identical to what I have at the moment with the exception of the driver flange which is round and not squared like that one. Wish I'd got a damn camera so I could take a few shots, after buying these though I'm broke again 🙁
Let us know how the LCY sounds when it arrives. I'd be interested to hear if half of what I've heard is true.
Re: Demo offer
Hi Jack,
Your very much welcome to come around for a listen.
I'm up in Chesterfield not far from Sheffield. I've been down to London a couple of times and usually takes me around 4 hours or more depending on the M1 traffic. I'm at junction 29 of the M1 if that helps.
If you can make it, bring a few of your fav CD's or DVD's and we can make an afternoon of it. Feel free to bring any equipment you like too. If you want some drivers testing for the T/S parameters bring those aswell. Whatever really, should be a good laugh and I can show you some of my other DIY stuff like my transmission line ribbons or the heaps of half finished boxes in the garage 😀
jacklelad said:
Hi Jack,
Your very much welcome to come around for a listen.
I'm up in Chesterfield not far from Sheffield. I've been down to London a couple of times and usually takes me around 4 hours or more depending on the M1 traffic. I'm at junction 29 of the M1 if that helps.
If you can make it, bring a few of your fav CD's or DVD's and we can make an afternoon of it. Feel free to bring any equipment you like too. If you want some drivers testing for the T/S parameters bring those aswell. Whatever really, should be a good laugh and I can show you some of my other DIY stuff like my transmission line ribbons or the heaps of half finished boxes in the garage 😀
Reading through this thread from start to finish... I just love a happy ending. Those ATC drivers look dead sexy. I can't wait til you get a camera and post the finished results of your speaker.
Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang
Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang
Shin:
Before you do ANYTHING else on this project, buy a camera. Borrow a friends. Steal one!!! =). I'm really upset about not getting to see the shots of your progress as it happens. Congrats BTW, it's been a long road.
Before you do ANYTHING else on this project, buy a camera. Borrow a friends. Steal one!!! =). I'm really upset about not getting to see the shots of your progress as it happens. Congrats BTW, it's been a long road.
hdkhang said:
Cheers hdk.
m0tion said:
Hey motion I remember back in early March when you posted in the first thread, cheers for following it all the way. Doesn't seem that long ago considering but I'm glad its finally sorted anyway.
I'll defo have to get a camera. My cellphone has one but the quality is terrible and I'd really rather not degrade them with naff photos.
Shin,
That sounds great ! I will PM you tomorrow so we can sync up on the demo afternoon front. Really excited to hear this after following the story since inception.
That sounds great ! I will PM you tomorrow so we can sync up on the demo afternoon front. Really excited to hear this after following the story since inception.
Nice one Shin.
Somehow I had the feeling in my waters that you would end up with Volt or ATC on bottom end duty. It's just so hard to match the quality of the domes, and you need a really well designed and sensitive driver to do so.
But well done, and if I'm ever up in that neck of the woods, I might pop in with a Krell or two...😉
Somehow I had the feeling in my waters that you would end up with Volt or ATC on bottom end duty. It's just so hard to match the quality of the domes, and you need a really well designed and sensitive driver to do so.
But well done, and if I'm ever up in that neck of the woods, I might pop in with a Krell or two...😉
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