Any thoughts on using the Peerless 830668 ten inch mid/woofer in a two way?
It seems to me that it could work well when used in conjunction with say an SB Acoustics ring dome TW29R which can be crossed quite low around 1500Hz .
It has very smooth roll-off with minimal break- up so also might suit a simple crossover.
It also suits a sealed box which for me makes it very appealing.Not a fan of ported bass.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...er--264-1110&usg=AOvVaw3YZlMWzeBlAji-Lr9FV4UJ
It seems to me that it could work well when used in conjunction with say an SB Acoustics ring dome TW29R which can be crossed quite low around 1500Hz .
It has very smooth roll-off with minimal break- up so also might suit a simple crossover.
It also suits a sealed box which for me makes it very appealing.Not a fan of ported bass.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...er--264-1110&usg=AOvVaw3YZlMWzeBlAji-Lr9FV4UJ
I've designed with Peerless 10" woofers and I love them - for three way systems. The largest woofer I would ever use in a two way system is 8", and even then you may need to go three way. Peerless woofers have far better midrange output than almost any other brand (for woofers).
I have an old pair of prototype speakers I made 30 years ago designed for Peerless 8" woofers. The problem I see now is that there is Doppler effect big time. The system does reach the mid 30 Hz range and the bass definitely modulates the midrange. I may redesign them, but as a three way system. Your 10" woofers will really suffer from this. Plus, you should cross over at least one octave away from the natural -3 dB points for any and all drivers in that system. A 1" dome tweeter would be about right for a three way system. Either that or a ribbon design that goes low.
Excellent choice on speaker brand. Very iffy with a 10" design. It may work, and probably sounds better than the bulk of those systems out there, but you really have to hear a correctly designed system. It would totally kill any other system near that price range.
-Chris
I have an old pair of prototype speakers I made 30 years ago designed for Peerless 8" woofers. The problem I see now is that there is Doppler effect big time. The system does reach the mid 30 Hz range and the bass definitely modulates the midrange. I may redesign them, but as a three way system. Your 10" woofers will really suffer from this. Plus, you should cross over at least one octave away from the natural -3 dB points for any and all drivers in that system. A 1" dome tweeter would be about right for a three way system. Either that or a ribbon design that goes low.
Excellent choice on speaker brand. Very iffy with a 10" design. It may work, and probably sounds better than the bulk of those systems out there, but you really have to hear a correctly designed system. It would totally kill any other system near that price range.
-Chris
No. In A26 kit you MUST use the tweeter from the kit because both drivers are made in such a way that minimal xover is sufficient. There is no way to xover and get proper frequency response with that woofer in a two way, without that tweeter. The drivers are purpose made to work in a two way with minimalist xover.
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3.5" Peerless TG9FD10 is a good recommention. Cheap & Easy
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EconoWave Controlled Directivity ... 1,200Hz Crossover
Parts Express
$13 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$34 Selenium 1" compression driver 2/3 Bolt . ( Proven Xover ckts available)
Selenium 8 Ohm Model: D220Ti-OMF-8 |Part # 299-2321
There are several long threads on EconoWave theory, sound, construction and crossover ckts.
=====
EconoWave Controlled Directivity ... 1,200Hz Crossover
Parts Express
$13 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$34 Selenium 1" compression driver 2/3 Bolt . ( Proven Xover ckts available)
Selenium 8 Ohm Model: D220Ti-OMF-8 |Part # 299-2321
There are several long threads on EconoWave theory, sound, construction and crossover ckts.
If you compare the frequency response curves of the Peerless 830668 and the Seas A26 RE4 they are really not too different.Yes the Peerless has a slight peak around 2000Hz compared to the Seas but it also rolls off much sharper from around 3000 Hz which might make it even more suited to a simple two way with no crossover on the woofer.Off axis response is very good right up to the natural roll-off which is often the problem even with much smaller drivers.
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People have used much cheaper tweeters in A26 clones. Even metal ones: TWEETERS
I don't believe that simple crossovers are good actually. They have high distortion. Kills it for me, but just my opinion I suppose.
Closed box or reflex aside, the Peerless 830668 is better compared with the CA26RFX in fact. It will need a bafflestep coil and a bit of impedance correction to be tidy.
Peerless SLS 830668 10" Woofer - Coated Paper Cone
SEAS Prestige CA26RFX (H1305) 10" Coated Paper Cone Woofer
The A26RE4 is a high inductance woofer that comes with a bass coil built in, if you like, so doesn't need a lot doing to it:
H1411-08 A26RE4
Let's assume we are hopeless noobs when it comes to this. It is best to see if this sort of thing has a hope of working first. We should look at a prototype of the already legendary DeVore Orangutan 96:
That incorporates some good ideas just from looking at it. I would expect no less of John DeVore. But I'll bet you he has a few crossover parts in there beyond a cap and a coil.
I don't believe that simple crossovers are good actually. They have high distortion. Kills it for me, but just my opinion I suppose.
Closed box or reflex aside, the Peerless 830668 is better compared with the CA26RFX in fact. It will need a bafflestep coil and a bit of impedance correction to be tidy.
Peerless SLS 830668 10" Woofer - Coated Paper Cone
SEAS Prestige CA26RFX (H1305) 10" Coated Paper Cone Woofer
The A26RE4 is a high inductance woofer that comes with a bass coil built in, if you like, so doesn't need a lot doing to it:
H1411-08 A26RE4
Let's assume we are hopeless noobs when it comes to this. It is best to see if this sort of thing has a hope of working first. We should look at a prototype of the already legendary DeVore Orangutan 96:
That incorporates some good ideas just from looking at it. I would expect no less of John DeVore. But I'll bet you he has a few crossover parts in there beyond a cap and a coil.
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Actually, there is a fair amount of breakup, it just happens to be complementary with the voice coil inductance.
Looking at the datasheet, the minimum impedance is about 7.3ohms at around 150Hz. If we look at the datasheet plot at 2kHz we find it is about 21ohms while the frequency response is about +2dB compared to 150Hz. Three times the impedance means 1/3rd the voice coil current and therefore should make the response fall to about -10dB. Therefore the cone is actually breaking up 12dB at 2kHz to achieve an overall +2dB response.
What this means is that the midrange distortion is going to be boosted up by 12dB compared to a driver which has a perfectly well behaved cone. The SLS series are built for subwoofer applications so less thought has been given to controlling the voicecoil inductance and instead more attention has been given to maximising excursion to deliver clean bass.
The result of this is that the midrange distortion is going to be higher than drivers built as 'midwoofers' (like the Peerless HDS series) even before the 10" cone has added it's +12dB zing to the distortion.
Hi system7 (Steve?),
I completely agree with you on crossover design. That and roll off the woofer long before it rolls off on it's own.
Hi jtgofish,
For a 2-way system, I still recommend an 8". Even that will have Doppler distortion. It will be worse with a 10" woofer. You really are in 3-way territory with a 10" woofer. Otherwise you'll be crossing the woofer off a bit lower and asking even more from a tweeter.
Can you make a 2-way speaker system using a 10"? Sure you can. Performance will suffer and later on you might discover how to make similar systems (but 3-way) that sound a lot better. Remember, 2-way systems that have good response in the bass ranges will have Doppler distortion higher up. It's annoying once you identify it.
-Chris
I completely agree with you on crossover design. That and roll off the woofer long before it rolls off on it's own.
Hi jtgofish,
For a 2-way system, I still recommend an 8". Even that will have Doppler distortion. It will be worse with a 10" woofer. You really are in 3-way territory with a 10" woofer. Otherwise you'll be crossing the woofer off a bit lower and asking even more from a tweeter.
Can you make a 2-way speaker system using a 10"? Sure you can. Performance will suffer and later on you might discover how to make similar systems (but 3-way) that sound a lot better. Remember, 2-way systems that have good response in the bass ranges will have Doppler distortion higher up. It's annoying once you identify it.
-Chris
That may be, but it doesn't mean that the laws of physics are suspended.
Can you do this? Yes.
Can that performance be improved easily? Absolutely!
In the 70's, several commercial speaker systems were sold with the same configuration of 10" and a tweeter. Guess why they didn't sound as good as three way systems?
Of course, if you make room in the box volume to add a midrange later - have at it. You can then correct the design later. Remember a new crossover will be required as well.
-Chris
Can you do this? Yes.
Can that performance be improved easily? Absolutely!
In the 70's, several commercial speaker systems were sold with the same configuration of 10" and a tweeter. Guess why they didn't sound as good as three way systems?
Of course, if you make room in the box volume to add a midrange later - have at it. You can then correct the design later. Remember a new crossover will be required as well.
-Chris
Why shouldn't someone make a 10"/1" speaker? It is just something like a cult, like fullranges, dipoles or line arrrays etc. (smiley) - someone likes and some other hates them, based on various theoretical or experience based reasons.
Here is Stereophile's measurements of DeVore Orangutan and easy to read the test too (the tester Dudley has almost similar AN speakers at home)
DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
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For sure a well excecuted 3-way will sound different!
Here is Stereophile's measurements of DeVore Orangutan and easy to read the test too (the tester Dudley has almost similar AN speakers at home)
DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
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For sure a well excecuted 3-way will sound different!
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Well I have owned Tannoy two ways using 10,12 and 15 inch drivers and in most ways they sound better than any of the smaller two ways I have used and I have owned some pretty decent ones in the $3000-$6000 price range.
I suspect that if you cross over an octave lower than the smaller two ways they can work very well.
In absolute terms I agree a three way will be better but that increases both complexity and cost.
I suspect that if you cross over an octave lower than the smaller two ways they can work very well.
In absolute terms I agree a three way will be better but that increases both complexity and cost.
Well, since it is a new build that needs things like wood ordered, I thought I'd raise the issues I have seen with that design. Having made several 2-way systems with 8" woofers for people before. A 10" - even a really good 10" like the one being considered will magnify the shortcomings.
Still, it would probably sound better than a full range system, and probably a 6 1/2" 2-way as well. But a 6 1/2" with a tweeter that uses a 10" sub works extremely well. Witness my PSB Stratus Gold speakers, that's the basic design they followed.
I just recently got a pair of Klipsch RP-280F speakers that use a pair of 8" woofers and a large tractrix horn each. They sound really good, and you cannot tell where the woofers cross over to the compression driver for the tweeter. That's an equivalent cone area to a single 10" and might be the way to go. I'd recommend it. I was designing a pair like this using a normal tweeter and decided to hear what was available. I was able to trade a repair job (a big one) for these and got them brand new. I was going to use Peerless drivers, so these really were less expensive than rolling my own in this case.
-Chris
Still, it would probably sound better than a full range system, and probably a 6 1/2" 2-way as well. But a 6 1/2" with a tweeter that uses a 10" sub works extremely well. Witness my PSB Stratus Gold speakers, that's the basic design they followed.
I just recently got a pair of Klipsch RP-280F speakers that use a pair of 8" woofers and a large tractrix horn each. They sound really good, and you cannot tell where the woofers cross over to the compression driver for the tweeter. That's an equivalent cone area to a single 10" and might be the way to go. I'd recommend it. I was designing a pair like this using a normal tweeter and decided to hear what was available. I was able to trade a repair job (a big one) for these and got them brand new. I was going to use Peerless drivers, so these really were less expensive than rolling my own in this case.
-Chris
10" midbass plus tweeter does seem to be the ideal scenario for a compression driver horn tweeter with a PA midbass.
Doing it with your regular lower efficiency drivers has some problems.
But really it's just a stretch of the 8" bass plus 1" tweeter idea.
So for sure you need a big tweeter that can cross around 2.5kHz if you go near natural 10" bass rolloff. The SB ring radiator doesn't look ideal to me, since it has a high FS impedance that won't work nicely with a single cap and 6dB electrical slopes.
John DeVore's (ferrofluid?) Morel waveguide idea looks good. But I still don't like single cap. What might work better is the old negative polarity idea around 2.5kHz with a high order tweeter crossover. That might work with the SB tweeter too. This is a plan because big woofers have fierce time alignment problems.
You need a very well-behaved woofer too, IMO. Use its natural rolloff. Some poor demented soul at this forum is currently trying to do something like this with an SB 10" metal woofer currently. He is currently working on a 1200Hz crossover with breakup notches to make it work, and getting all sorts of phase problems too.
Doing it with your regular lower efficiency drivers has some problems.
But really it's just a stretch of the 8" bass plus 1" tweeter idea.
So for sure you need a big tweeter that can cross around 2.5kHz if you go near natural 10" bass rolloff. The SB ring radiator doesn't look ideal to me, since it has a high FS impedance that won't work nicely with a single cap and 6dB electrical slopes.
John DeVore's (ferrofluid?) Morel waveguide idea looks good. But I still don't like single cap. What might work better is the old negative polarity idea around 2.5kHz with a high order tweeter crossover. That might work with the SB tweeter too. This is a plan because big woofers have fierce time alignment problems.
You need a very well-behaved woofer too, IMO. Use its natural rolloff. Some poor demented soul at this forum is currently trying to do something like this with an SB 10" metal woofer currently. He is currently working on a 1200Hz crossover with breakup notches to make it work, and getting all sorts of phase problems too.
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