PCM4204, DSD to PCM conversion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jump to Latest
#23
room compensation- making the room 'dead'
time adjustment- distance adjustments
base management- large room/good placement
dsp modes????? never for a good classical sacd!

I admit that you can do so much more in the digital domain but it is to difficult to get a good 6 channel pcm signal from a sacd. And also the quality-losses are to big. Nothing beats a direct DSD recording with minimal mixing.
Yes I was convinced it was possible in the digital domain but i've lost(changed) my religion.....
I still feel it can be done but not with stuff available nowadays.
 
#24
aaronboumans said:
room compensation- making the room 'dead'
Click to expand...
I completely disagree. Just need to use linear phase filters like Audissey or DeusX do - and you are fine. If you don't do it, you have 3 major peaks - or even worse if your room walls are equal in length.

time adjustment- distance adjustments
Click to expand...
Yes, but it HAS TO BE DONE, or you loose the major point to have all surround signals coming in phase, which will destroy the image and stage.

base management- large room/good placement
Click to expand...
Sorry, you don't understand. Bass management means a correlation between LFE and other channels ... please read All You Need to Know About Bass Management

dsp modes????? never for a good classical sacd!
Click to expand...
I've heard this statement from Sony ... the best way to listen to SACD is a straight way. And you know what? I have found re-labeled SM5819AF in their top receiver STR-DA9000ES ... and then all processing was done in PCM ...

I admit that you can do so much more in the digital domain but it is to difficult to get a good 6 channel pcm signal from a sacd.
Click to expand...
Really? But your statement contradicts to Sony's statement (the same table - DSD to PCM downconversion was on Sony's website, not anymore, I have found it here: DSD
Using single stage FIR digital filtering and noise shaping, 1-bit DSD can be down-converted into standard 24, 20 or even 16-bit PCM audio for CD distribution while still retaining the maximum possible audio quality. The system's 2.8224 MHz sampling rate is specifically designed for high precision down-conversion to all current PCM sampling rates using simple integer multiplies and divides.

And also the quality-losses are to big. Nothing beats a direct DSD recording with minimal mixing.
Click to expand...
See above. This is a myth, long time ago distributed by Sony and finally abandoned (together with SACD format) by using DSD->PCM convertor in their top receiver ... for DSD signals (please note that it doesn't even support transfer of signals from DVD-A sources through i-link)

Yes I was convinced it was possible in the digital domain but i've lost(changed) my religion.....
Click to expand...
Get it back with at least 48 bit (double precision) or better 64 bit DSP processing with at least 96 kHz sampling rate 🙂
I still feel it can be done but not with stuff available nowadays.
Click to expand...
It is wrong, IMO it was already possible 5 years ago starting with Denon 5805 🙂
 
Last edited:
#25
You know what? You might be right on some(!) points; but I will not argue on all points.
I do believe in a complete digital way with all its benefits of corrections, yes! But I cannot make it happen. I have no sacd-player with 6 times hirez pcm output. And using a receiver!!!?????!!!! I have 6 PASS-LABS amps (8 more on the way also for active analog LR filter surround) so I do not want anything else unless same quality. But maybe you know more? Is there a 6 channel hires pcm out device? I really need this to process all signal with dsp's (time alignment, active 2and3-way filter for 6 channels,phase correction. I was under the impression no hirez(!) pcm outputs were allowed for copyright reasons (on consumer equipment).
 
#26
aaronboumans said:
You know what? You might be right on some(!) points; but I will not argue on all points.
I do believe in a complete digital way with all its benefits of corrections, yes! But I cannot make it happen. I have no sacd-player with 6 times hirez pcm output. And using a receiver!!!?????!!!! I have 6 PASS-LABS amps (8 more on the way also for active analog LR filter surround) so I do not want anything else unless same quality. But maybe you know more? Is there a 6 channel hires pcm out device? I really need this to process all signal with dsp's (time alignment, active 2and3-way filter for 6 channels,phase correction. I was under the impression no hirez(!) pcm outputs were allowed for copyright reasons (on consumer equipment).
Click to expand...
If you have 6 PASS-LABS amps of course your do not need a receiver (at your level of requests Lexicon RV-8 can be taken in consideration, for example), but you still need an AV processor do do all mentioned things.
Such as you are in the DIY forum, I assume you can easily modify any AV processor to get your desired level of quality. For example in Lexicon MC-12 you can replace OPA2134 with better op amps, etc.

Regarding uncompressed multi-channel hi-res PCM - with HTCP you can transfer it through i-link or HDMI 1.3. I do it since 2002 (i-link with PQLS).

Please review the following AV processor - Halcro SSP220 (the best for now, period. It doesn't need any modification)
I would recommend it to be used with PASS LABS amps.
 
Last edited:
#27
but does it have 14 analog ouput(from MC sacd) for active speakersystem, and can it do digital crossover?
All products you mention do not support active system. I (soon) have LF-3way, RF-3way Mid-3way,RR-2way, RL-2way,LF-sub. Every speaker has a PASS-LAB mono-amp. So I need a sacd player with hirez-6-channel-pcm-output in order to split in in 14 seperate digital channels(digital crossover and all corrections) and then feed all to a 14 channel DA-converter and then to a 14 channelstepping-volume-system and then to the 14 PASSLABS monoamps.

I cannot see me doing this with consumer grade equipment! You cannot do this with your suggested materials!
That is why I go analog all the way. (I even build an extra listeningroom to existing house)
 
Last edited:
#28
aaronboumans said:
but does it have 14 analog ouput(from MC sacd) for active speakersystem, and can it do digital crossover?
All products you mention do not support active system. I (soon) have LF-3way, RF-3way Mid-3way,RR-2way, RL-2way,LF-sub. Every speaker has a PASS-LAB mono-amp. So I need a sacd player with hirez-6-channel-pcm-output in order to split in in 14 seperate digital channels(digital crossover and all corrections) and then feed all to a 14 channel DA-converter and then to a 14 channelstepping-volume-system and then to the 14 PASSLABS monoamps.

I cannot see me doing this with consumer grade equipment! You cannot do this with your suggested materials!
That is why I go analog all the way. (I even build an extra listeningroom to existing house)
Click to expand...
Sir,
I don't understand what you do. You said you have 6 Pass Labs amps, and it is exactly as many channels as you have on a multichannel SACD (5.1).
What was the reason to order 8 more amps, if you do not have sources for them (I don't count speakers in parallel)?

OK, let's say you want to build a pure active system (and according to your post you definitely do) with amplifier assigned to each driver, distributing frequency bands to each one with active crossovers. What is the reason to use the same very powerful amplifiers for high frequencies comparing to low frequencies? Now you have a complete mess, because you can not sync all those speakers - you have no DSP to adjust delays, signals from all speakers will have a random phase shift. How do you intend to rebuild the image and stage in your system, not even talking about flat frequency response?

However there is a way. Do whatever you want to do to build active speakers - I assume you have a plan how to do it correctly - I mean somehow adjust phases of speakers+filters (I hate to do it in an analog domain, you will always have some losses - in a digital domain you have 0 losses using proper DSP).
Then use those speakers like normal ones, i.e. use 5.1 channel system with 6 inputs and AV processor.

I don't really like this concept though. You will have a lot of interferences, created by reflections of low frequencies (modes) from your sub, center and front speakers unless you cut their (speakers) frequency range below about 80 Hz (and for sub above 80 Hz). If you do it, what is the reason to use 3-way speakers? I prefer THX Ultra 2 concept with cross frequency at 80 Hz, 2 subwoofers and 7 other speakers (2 front 2-way monitors, 2-way center, 2 side speakers in dipole mode and 2 back speakers in tripole mode).
THX uses quite logical concept with 24 db/oct 4th order LPF for subwoofer and 12 dB/oct 2nd order HPF (assuming that 2-way speakers have a natural 12 dB/oct HPF) and then using digital delay adjust a phase of sub+speakers) - take a look at the picture here http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/thx4.htm
This is how they got rid of interferences and make correct sync for phases and flat frequency response.

Please note that normally volume levels in side and back channels are significantly lower than in front and center speakers - you don't really need the same amps.

Sir, you have invested so much in your system that I would recommend you to hire a professional local AV consultant to help you. Please, I don't mean any offense, I want you to be happy.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom