The subject is just to start a debate. Did I succeed?
I read 600 uV noise at the output of some Pass amp. Let's say 1W out = fairly high volume with a normal speaker. This meens a S/N of only 73 dB approx a Dolby B (maybe C) cassette recording qualilty (if we only talk noise). Isn't that rather noisy?
I have never come across a Pass amp so I don't know, just curious about the use of MOSFET's at the input which is a big no-no in textbooks. JFET's and BJT are wellsuited for audio and (dualgate) MOSFET's good in HF front-ends.
If we only speak noise, how noisy are Nelson Pass' designs really? Does it bother those of you who has any Pass amp?
I read 600 uV noise at the output of some Pass amp. Let's say 1W out = fairly high volume with a normal speaker. This meens a S/N of only 73 dB approx a Dolby B (maybe C) cassette recording qualilty (if we only talk noise). Isn't that rather noisy?
I have never come across a Pass amp so I don't know, just curious about the use of MOSFET's at the input which is a big no-no in textbooks. JFET's and BJT are wellsuited for audio and (dualgate) MOSFET's good in HF front-ends.
If we only speak noise, how noisy are Nelson Pass' designs really? Does it bother those of you who has any Pass amp?
I'm not after answers like "build your own amp", I'm simply trying to ask you who own a Pass amp how noisy they are at normal listening levels. 73 dB (according to my calulations) seems to be low.
so what ? measurements means (mostly) nothing.... you should
ask : how it sounds ....
I would turn the point of view around: Measurements really do mean something but not always!
I think that even Pass Labs measure thier products before delivery. They can't only listen to every amp in order to judge if it's OK. I think they have a more advanced quality system than that.
There is no need to show contemt for us who uses measurment instruments.
There is no shame to admit that Pass' amps has noise but otherwise sounds good. Since I don't have one I simply ask you about it.
so what ? measurements means (mostly) nothing.... you should
ask : how it sounds ....
I would turn the point of view around: Measurements really do mean something but not always!
I think that even Pass Labs measure thier products before delivery. They can't only listen to every amp in order to judge if it's OK. I think they have a more advanced quality system than that.
There is no need to show contemt for us who uses measurment instruments.
There is no shame to admit that Pass' amps has noise but otherwise sounds good. Since I don't have one I simply ask you about it.
Well I have built a Son of Zen with about 5W per channel and without any kind of technical knowledge( I project bridges, not amps'
') I have to say that with my "ear meter" the SOZ is way less noisy that my Audio Note Kit One, that is a Class A, Single ended, no feedback, Triode (300B) valve amp.
When I say less noisy I mean that with no source playing the hiss coming from the speaker is louder in the valve amp than the SOZ.
I also feel that SOZ is great at the low frequencies, (better than the valve amp)
and in the midrange the old valves kick butt...
Hope I've helped something
Pedro Oliveira
') I have to say that with my "ear meter" the SOZ is way less noisy that my Audio Note Kit One, that is a Class A, Single ended, no feedback, Triode (300B) valve amp.When I say less noisy I mean that with no source playing the hiss coming from the speaker is louder in the valve amp than the SOZ.
I also feel that SOZ is great at the low frequencies, (better than the valve amp)
and in the midrange the old valves kick butt...
Hope I've helped something
Pedro Oliveira
Noise Measurement
Per Anders:
You're not getting the response you want, but can I ask- How do you go about making that measurement?
I can only read down to 5mv/division on my oscilloscope, so I'm not sure how to make a measurement to the precision that you apparently can. I would like to make those measurements when my stuff is done.
Per Anders:
You're not getting the response you want, but can I ask- How do you go about making that measurement?
I can only read down to 5mv/division on my oscilloscope, so I'm not sure how to make a measurement to the precision that you apparently can. I would like to make those measurements when my stuff is done.
Re: Noise Measurement
I have used a voltmeter with 10µV AC (wideband, more than the audioband) full scale. The instrument has also a couple of weighting filters. I have also connected the output of the voltmeter to an oscilloscope in order to "see" the noise. Can be valuable if I have problems outside the aodioband. Also I have listened to the noise (or the adsence of it).
vpharris said:
I have used a voltmeter with 10µV AC (wideband, more than the audioband) full scale. The instrument has also a couple of weighting filters. I have also connected the output of the voltmeter to an oscilloscope in order to "see" the noise. Can be valuable if I have problems outside the aodioband. Also I have listened to the noise (or the adsence of it).
I appreciate real observations in this matter. My question was very pratical.
Let's say the S/N is 73 dB at 1 W.
Normal speaker produces 90-92 dB. 73 dB down gives us 19 dB and this is slightly above the hearing threshold.
If 73 dB is enough why is 98 dB from a CD not enough so we want >120 dB from DVD? I know that higher resolution gives other advantages besides noise. Just thinking.... as I said in an another place the industry must come up with something new.
Let's say the S/N is 73 dB at 1 W.
Normal speaker produces 90-92 dB. 73 dB down gives us 19 dB and this is slightly above the hearing threshold.
If 73 dB is enough why is 98 dB from a CD not enough so we want >120 dB from DVD? I know that higher resolution gives other advantages besides noise. Just thinking.... as I said in an another place the industry must come up with something new.
I've got two pairs of Aleph 2s, one on midrange and one on tweeters. Noise, at least on my system, simply doesn't exist. In my case, the drivers are about 88dB/1W, only moderate in efficiency.
Someone with horns posted elsewhere and said that he had some hiss with the MOSFETs in the front end. Nelson's reply was to consider JFETs. I don't remember which amp the poster was using--I vaguely recall mention of 10W, which might indicate that he'd built a Mini-A or something of that nature. However, seeing as how the Mini-A is basically a straight port of an Aleph 30, the observation might still be applicable to your question.
All of the above is a long-winded way of saying that you can't ask a question about the amplifier in isolation. You need to consider what speaker it's being used with, what other electronics, and the listening levels involved.
Grey
Someone with horns posted elsewhere and said that he had some hiss with the MOSFETs in the front end. Nelson's reply was to consider JFETs. I don't remember which amp the poster was using--I vaguely recall mention of 10W, which might indicate that he'd built a Mini-A or something of that nature. However, seeing as how the Mini-A is basically a straight port of an Aleph 30, the observation might still be applicable to your question.
All of the above is a long-winded way of saying that you can't ask a question about the amplifier in isolation. You need to consider what speaker it's being used with, what other electronics, and the listening levels involved.
Grey
I build an Aleph about a year ago, using 3 output pairs per channel, and measured the noise on my HP distortion analyzer at about 450 microvolts (input shorted). At the time, I was using Lowther's (104 dB efficiency) and the noise was excessive and annoying.
I ended up regulating the power supply (mosfet shunt style ala Aleph P, but for more current), and dropped the noise level to about 70 microvolts. The amp was then dead quiet with the Lowthers.
Regards, Robert
I ended up regulating the power supply (mosfet shunt style ala Aleph P, but for more current), and dropped the noise level to about 70 microvolts. The amp was then dead quiet with the Lowthers.
Regards, Robert
OK Guys,
Now you've made me nervous. I have most of the parts for my Aleph 3/5 that I plan to use as the high frequency amp in a tri-amp system. It will be responsible for powering JBL horns above 1200Hz, but a s/n of 73db would be a real problem with effeciencies of about 105db/w/m.
According to Robert with a simular efficiency, the stock Aleph noise level would be "excessive and annoying"
Are there alternatives to regulating the supply?
Does anyone have an idea of how much of the noise is above 1kHz?
Will a PI filter in the supply have a greater affect on the hi-frequency noise, or the lo-frequency noise?
Thanks,
Rodd Yamashita
Now you've made me nervous. I have most of the parts for my Aleph 3/5 that I plan to use as the high frequency amp in a tri-amp system. It will be responsible for powering JBL horns above 1200Hz, but a s/n of 73db would be a real problem with effeciencies of about 105db/w/m.
According to Robert with a simular efficiency, the stock Aleph noise level would be "excessive and annoying"
Are there alternatives to regulating the supply?
Does anyone have an idea of how much of the noise is above 1kHz?
Will a PI filter in the supply have a greater affect on the hi-frequency noise, or the lo-frequency noise?
Thanks,
Rodd Yamashita
Let me clarify my comments with the Lowthers.
Before I regulated the supplies, I had no pi filter, but used about 40,000 microfarads per rail per channel. I had a noticeable hum component that I could trace from the power supply. Due to space contraints, regulation was easier to implement over a pi filter supply since I had a chassis with dual mono (no room for more caps and 4 chokes), and I didn't want to have a single power supply.
Pi filtering may be technically simpler and get the noise level down to a reasonable level with your horns. The sound from the Alephs on high efficiency speakers is extremely good; build them, you'll be happy. See if your layout is OK without pi filtering, but allow space for it as a modification if the noise should prove to be too great.
Good luck, Robert
Before I regulated the supplies, I had no pi filter, but used about 40,000 microfarads per rail per channel. I had a noticeable hum component that I could trace from the power supply. Due to space contraints, regulation was easier to implement over a pi filter supply since I had a chassis with dual mono (no room for more caps and 4 chokes), and I didn't want to have a single power supply.
Pi filtering may be technically simpler and get the noise level down to a reasonable level with your horns. The sound from the Alephs on high efficiency speakers is extremely good; build them, you'll be happy. See if your layout is OK without pi filtering, but allow space for it as a modification if the noise should prove to be too great.
Good luck, Robert
After you have regulated the supply, the next step to the
lowest possible noise for the Alephs would be P channel
JFETs for the differential pair, like maybe 2SJ109's and a
quieter bipolar type current source for them.
Also, if your driver is that efficient, you can lower the gain
by 6 dB or so, and with it, the noise.
lowest possible noise for the Alephs would be P channel
JFETs for the differential pair, like maybe 2SJ109's and a
quieter bipolar type current source for them.
Also, if your driver is that efficient, you can lower the gain
by 6 dB or so, and with it, the noise.
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