thedoc,
I wouldn't bother asking for people to agree that changing what you perceive to be a "cheap" thing for an "expensive" thing does anything other than relieve you of money.
Some will agree with you, others will point out that there is no measurable difference. You are on a hiding to nowhere.
Remember that "high quality caps" like you seem to appreciate are only sold to a very few extremists. The rest of the world including the whole audio chain back to the studio woldn't pay for them in a fit.
For my two bits worth, I think you are making a change that you don't understand, and would probably do as well painting the PCB hot pink. But that is just my opinion. When I do completely unjustifiable things like this, I just go do it and don't tell anyone. Mostly because I would be embarrassed by telling the world, but also because once I have chosen to do something silly for my own reasons, why seek support?
I wouldn't bother asking for people to agree that changing what you perceive to be a "cheap" thing for an "expensive" thing does anything other than relieve you of money.
Some will agree with you, others will point out that there is no measurable difference. You are on a hiding to nowhere.
Remember that "high quality caps" like you seem to appreciate are only sold to a very few extremists. The rest of the world including the whole audio chain back to the studio woldn't pay for them in a fit.
For my two bits worth, I think you are making a change that you don't understand, and would probably do as well painting the PCB hot pink. But that is just my opinion. When I do completely unjustifiable things like this, I just go do it and don't tell anyone. Mostly because I would be embarrassed by telling the world, but also because once I have chosen to do something silly for my own reasons, why seek support?
Actually I asked if mounting them above their original board locations on a suspension bar and thus considerably REDUCING the loop area and insulating the flying leads would be a more suitable proposition than mounting off board (at the side) with long flying leads; that was the question?
On the contrary, I think I have found a workable solution by mounting the large caps above their original locations (on a suspension bar) and thus NOT requiring the flying leads to be extended in any way what so ever AND insulating them as well, is a viable 'work around'. Unfortunately whilst asking for advice (NOT SUPPORT) I seem to have encountered and attracted the (almost inevitable) derisory comment makers, rather than mature and sensible advice!
So, does anyone here actual know if using a suspension bar for the large caps is a viable solution? SENSIBLE ANSWERS ONLY PLEASE!! (No childish remarks).
I think you should have a look at things like this:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/components/capacitors.html
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
http://tubelab.com/designs/tubelab-se/manual/capacitors/
http://www.high-endaudio.com/Modifications.html
http://www.hifizine.com/2010/12/doing-your-own-dac-mods-a-primer/
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But the $64,000 question is why would you be asking this question in the first place?
You can mount a cap any way you please. In industry a generous dollop of RTV is not uncommon - though it may affect the sound.
Thank you for the links - as I stated earlier, I don't try justifying some of the weird **** I get up to. I also don't seek people's confirmation it is right! Not my cup of tea at all.
You can mount a cap any way you please. In industry a generous dollop of RTV is not uncommon - though it may affect the sound.
Thank you for the links - as I stated earlier, I don't try justifying some of the weird **** I get up to. I also don't seek people's confirmation it is right! Not my cup of tea at all.
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I think he meant that it is electrically a bodge, no matter how neat it appears to be physically. Insulating the leads will achieve nothing, except to reduce the risk of accidental shorting.thedoc735 said:
Genuine 'quality kit' uses appropriate components. Therefore if the 'wrong' caps have been used then the Cary is not 'quality' and so does not need 'quality' caps. If the Cary designer got it right then there is no need to change the caps.
It is easy to change a circuit. To improve it you need to understand it better than the original designer.
I just don't understand this practice of butchering good equipment like this.
An accredited electrical engineer or equivalent experienced person designed and built this product. You can easily see from the workmanship this is a high quality product.
Why do people with absolutely no electronics experience think they know better?
Besides advice from audiophile rags, what measurements have you done or referenced to determine if any upgrade is needed? As for the "cheap" caps, what is their circuit function and do the OEM caps meet those requirements. I'm sure the screws holding the PC board down are less than a penny each? Do more expensive screws sound better too?
What exactly is a "high quality cap"? What are the parameters that determine "high quality"? Price? What some audiophile magazine says?
An accredited electrical engineer or equivalent experienced person designed and built this product. You can easily see from the workmanship this is a high quality product.
Why do people with absolutely no electronics experience think they know better?
Besides advice from audiophile rags, what measurements have you done or referenced to determine if any upgrade is needed? As for the "cheap" caps, what is their circuit function and do the OEM caps meet those requirements. I'm sure the screws holding the PC board down are less than a penny each? Do more expensive screws sound better too?
What exactly is a "high quality cap"? What are the parameters that determine "high quality"? Price? What some audiophile magazine says?
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thanx for the advice.
What is it I'm trying to achieve/why am I asking?
...someone has put very cheap Monacor caps in the Cary 100t DAC (a dollar each! $) and I want to replace them with high quality caps because 'the cary' is a quality piece of kit; the only trouble is, all the quality caps seem massive and double the size of what is in there at the moment! The monacors are: Ø 17 mm x L 31 mm. Previous to this someone else had fitted Dynamicaps that were: Ø 25 mm x L 39 mm, but I'm uncertain how these fitted in the available space? It seems it may have been originally supplied with OEM/trade Panasonc caps that were replaced with some kind of ModWright caps (early on!)?
I have found these 'budget' caps that would fit the space allocated:
JEL-075 - 4.7uF 100V Jensen Axial Electrolytic Capacitor
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/cat...or-p-9208.html
001-0431: 3.9uF 400Vdc Jantzen Standard Z-Cap
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/cat...ard-z-cap.html
(MKP-060) - 3.9uF 250V Mundorf MCap MKP Capacitor
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/cat...or-p-8503.html
(KPQS/3.9/250) - AUDYN CAP MKP QS 3.90 MF / 400 VDC / 250 VAC 5% AXIAL capacitor
https://www.intertechnik.com/Shop/Cr...,en,7476,46758
...indeed there doesn't seem to be any high end quality caps that are small enough to fit in that space! Non of these are reviewed as being anything other than 'ordinary' (not extraordinary!). Do you know of any small very high quality caps?
Dan wemmer of 'CARY' said:
"sure! ...any of these should be OK as long as they fit the allocated space, there's no real voltage issue there (20 volts max.) that needs that high a voltage cap to be installed, it's just what those caps come as in manufacture, 100volt caps would easily suffice the purpose in this case!"
So that's it: I would like to fit very high quality caps, size isn't the issue - quality is! Quality caps usually equates to BIGGER as well (unfortunately), i.e. I wish I could source some high quality caps that are small enough to fit the space, but it appears - there isn't? So, to get the quality I seek it looks as though I would have to go bigger in size whilst obviously maintaining the correct 'Uf'! I am not seeking people's approval at all, I was seeking help and advice on the best way to achieve my goal and perhaps suggest a suitable cap?
why is it an electrical bodge though? I would be using the same voltages/Uf etc, the only difference is that it would have a higher quality cap fitted (unfortunately that quality usually comes at the expense of 'compactness' i.e. I wish there were smaller quality caps, but it seems there isn't? Just because it is physically bigger doesn't make it a bodge in my book, on the contrary it would be higher quality! There are some amps out there that don't look physically 'neat' at all, "BUT!" ~ they are often home builds, not neatly arranged but filled with quality components from the beginning to the very end of the electical chain AND THEY SOUND AMAZING BUT LOOK UGLY INSIDE AND OUT! I am not bothered about aesthetics in this case.
Reducing the risk of shorting is a worthwhile gain in my book.
The Cary did not come secondhand with their original components fitted, someone else in the past has changed them for the Monacor caps! In a email from Cary about this, they told me that as far as they were concerned the Monacor caps were cheap and nasty and I should replace them for something more in keeping with the quality of the product. In addition stating that when they built the 100t DAC they were working to a pricepoint, for Saleability purposes; this doesn't infer that an owner can't improve the quality (still further) with superior components if they so wish! Cary didn't install such high quality components because it would have pushed the MSRP beyond the limit they had already set. i.e. an owner can customise if they so wish! The 100t is a quality product that can be customised to a higher pricepoint if you so wish, this doesn't infer that it wasn't good to start with, but only that a high quality product can be made even greater if you so wish, often by extremists!! The Cary 100t designers told me that as far as they were concerned the Monacor caps were cheap and nasty and I should replace them with original spec. components supplied by Cary OR something at a level/pricepoint above the OEM standard (not 'below'), they sighted Mundorf/Jensen etc as a case in point that would meet with their seal of approval. Unfortunately the physical size of the replacement items wasn't discussed properly, all they said was: "as long as they fit the allocated space on the board", leaving me with the current dilemma which I am trying to resolve with the help of DIYAudio.
...why do you consider it to be electrical butchery though? I would be using the same voltages/Uf etc, the only difference is that it would have a higher quality cap fitted (unfortunately that quality usually comes at the expense of 'compactness' i.e. I wish there were smaller quality caps, but it seems there isn't? Just because it is physically bigger doesn't make it butchery in my book, on the contrary it would be higher quality! There are some amps out there that don't look physically 'neat' at all, "BUT!" ~ they are often home builds, not neatly arranged but filled with quality components from the beginning to the very end of the electical chain AND THEY SOUND AMAZING BUT LOOK UGLY INSIDE AND OUT! I am not bothered about aesthetics in this case.
Reducing the risk of shorting with insulation is a worthwhile gain in my book.
The Cary did not come secondhand with their original components fitted, someone else in the past has changed them for the Monacor caps! In a email from Cary about this, they told me that as far as they were concerned the Monacor caps were cheap and nasty and I should replace them for something more in keeping with the quality of the product. In addition stating that when they built the 100t DAC they were working to a pricepoint, for Saleability purposes; this doesn't infer that an owner can't improve the quality (still further) with superior components if they so wish! Cary didn't install such high quality components because it would have pushed the MSRP beyond the limit they had already set. i.e. an owner can customise if they so wish! The 100t is a quality product that can be customised to a higher pricepoint if you so wish, this doesn't infer that it wasn't good to start with, but only that a high quality product can be made even greater if you so wish, often by extremists!! The Cary 100t designers told me that as far as they were concerned the Monacor caps were cheap and nasty and I should replace them with original spec. components supplied by Cary OR something at a level/pricepoint above the OEM standard (not 'below'), they sighted Mundorf/Jensen etc as a case in point that would meet with their seal of approval. Unfortunately the physical size of the replacement items wasn't discussed properly, all they said was: "as long as they fit the allocated space on the board", leaving me with the current dilemma which I am trying to resolve with the help of DIYAudio.
I have used audiophile rags to determine the quality e.g.
Humble Homemade Hifi - Cap Test
I haven't done my own measurements but relied on the Cary designers suggestions. The function of the Monacor components are output buffers and Cary say that they do not meet those requirements and I should change them!
The screws Vs. Caps argument is not a viable one, the two simply cannot be compared in any way.
Just to make things a bit clearer:
1) I bought a secondhand Cary 100t DAC
2) Someone had downgraded the Output Buffer Caps. (monacor)
3) Cary told me to return the DAC to original spec OR ABOVE!
4) I decided to upgrade to a higher level than original spec.
5) I would like cap. suggestions from DIYAudio members?
6) Cary said I should keep the Uf to around 4.
7) Cary said the voltage should be above 20, 100 being ample.
8) the current cap size is: Ø 17 mm x L 31 mm.
9) A past cap fitment had been as large as: Ø 25 mm x L 39 mm (very tight).
1) I bought a secondhand Cary 100t DAC
2) Someone had downgraded the Output Buffer Caps. (monacor)
3) Cary told me to return the DAC to original spec OR ABOVE!
4) I decided to upgrade to a higher level than original spec.
5) I would like cap. suggestions from DIYAudio members?
6) Cary said I should keep the Uf to around 4.
7) Cary said the voltage should be above 20, 100 being ample.
8) the current cap size is: Ø 17 mm x L 31 mm.
9) A past cap fitment had been as large as: Ø 25 mm x L 39 mm (very tight).
And the clearly say 'The capacitors listed below have been tested in passive loudspeaker crossovers.'
Many people here on diyaudio refernece to this page and put listed capacitors in there amplifiers,preamps,cd-s etc...And the tested capacitors are tested a wrote again" THE CAPACITORS LISTED BELOW HAVE BEEN TESTED IN PASSIVE LOUDSPEAKER CROSSOVER."
Hi,
I'm not familiar with the Cary 100t but I did a Google images search and it looks like the original capacitors were some red coloured dipped radial film capacitors. It's not clear to me if they were MKT (metalized polyester) or MKP (metalized polypropylene).
I think that these capacitors are probably coupling capacitors in series with the signal on the output. Their role is to block DC in the output.
The original capacitors fitted by Cary were already a perfect choice for this application.
If the original caps were MKT then it's possible that a small upgrade in performance could be had by swapping these out to MKP. If the original caps were already MKP then I would consider them to already be perfectly suited to the job.
I don't know which Monacor caps have been fitted to your unit but chances are that they are metalized polypropylene film. They will do the job perfectly and if they've been fitted neatly and securely I would leave them in place.
Superior capacitors will be polypropylene film and foil in construction rather than metalized film. Film foil caps tend to be physically much larger than metalized film caps and this is why you can't find any really highly reviewed caps which are small enough, they will all be metalized types. Lower voltage rated capacitors will generally be smaller.
If it was my DAC I would either return it to original spec or I would leave it untouched with the Monacor caps in place. However it's clear that you don't want to do that so I'll try to be helpful by suggesting some capacitors which are good and might be small enough for you.
IIRC Ansar supersound capacitors are UK made high quality metalized MKP. I think I read somewhere that although they are metalized types the film is metalized twice resulting in a thicker conducting layer which gives a better sound. They are reasonably priced too.
Clarity Cap SA and ESA ranges are also quite compact. I have used the ESA range and thought that they were very good. One problem for you is that they have very thick leadout wires which probably won't fit through the through-holes in your PCB. You'll have to come up with a solution (perhaps using PCB pins?).
Polycarbonate capacitors would be a very good alternative and they can often be quite compact too. Most manufacturers stopped making polycarbonate capacitors years ago because of an unavailability in the film material but you can still find plenty of NOS ones on ebay. I have some 6.8uF 63v vintage Wima MKB polycarbonate capacitors which are very compact.
I'm not familiar with the Cary 100t but I did a Google images search and it looks like the original capacitors were some red coloured dipped radial film capacitors. It's not clear to me if they were MKT (metalized polyester) or MKP (metalized polypropylene).
I think that these capacitors are probably coupling capacitors in series with the signal on the output. Their role is to block DC in the output.
The original capacitors fitted by Cary were already a perfect choice for this application.
If the original caps were MKT then it's possible that a small upgrade in performance could be had by swapping these out to MKP. If the original caps were already MKP then I would consider them to already be perfectly suited to the job.
I don't know which Monacor caps have been fitted to your unit but chances are that they are metalized polypropylene film. They will do the job perfectly and if they've been fitted neatly and securely I would leave them in place.
Superior capacitors will be polypropylene film and foil in construction rather than metalized film. Film foil caps tend to be physically much larger than metalized film caps and this is why you can't find any really highly reviewed caps which are small enough, they will all be metalized types. Lower voltage rated capacitors will generally be smaller.
If it was my DAC I would either return it to original spec or I would leave it untouched with the Monacor caps in place. However it's clear that you don't want to do that so I'll try to be helpful by suggesting some capacitors which are good and might be small enough for you.
IIRC Ansar supersound capacitors are UK made high quality metalized MKP. I think I read somewhere that although they are metalized types the film is metalized twice resulting in a thicker conducting layer which gives a better sound. They are reasonably priced too.
Clarity Cap SA and ESA ranges are also quite compact. I have used the ESA range and thought that they were very good. One problem for you is that they have very thick leadout wires which probably won't fit through the through-holes in your PCB. You'll have to come up with a solution (perhaps using PCB pins?).
Polycarbonate capacitors would be a very good alternative and they can often be quite compact too. Most manufacturers stopped making polycarbonate capacitors years ago because of an unavailability in the film material but you can still find plenty of NOS ones on ebay. I have some 6.8uF 63v vintage Wima MKB polycarbonate capacitors which are very compact.
'humble' said in an email that this test data could be applied to my output buffers also.
And tell me how is the same?And you lie to yourself that's good also.I doubt that humble say this.
Satisfy your curiosity and do the modifications you intend. Listen to the amp over an extended period of days, weeks and months and just be influenced by what you think you hear.
Also balance into the equation (if this kind of detail bothers you) as to whether the amp looks as good internally as it would with proper fitting parts.
And think on this... the guy with a £$20K Rolex strapped to his wrist probably didn't buy it for its timekeeping, if that was the sole objective then a more obvious choice would be a £$10 Casio.
By buying into boutique parts you are quite possibly buying into something other than the best parts for the designated task... but that is an individual choice.
Also balance into the equation (if this kind of detail bothers you) as to whether the amp looks as good internally as it would with proper fitting parts.
And think on this... the guy with a £$20K Rolex strapped to his wrist probably didn't buy it for its timekeeping, if that was the sole objective then a more obvious choice would be a £$10 Casio.
By buying into boutique parts you are quite possibly buying into something other than the best parts for the designated task... but that is an individual choice.
Provided the correct value has been used, and not in a totally inappropriate dielectric (e.g. high-K ceramic), then it is almost impossible to 'downgrade' a coupling cap.thedoc735 said:
Manufacturers of so-called 'high end' audio like to use and specify 'high end' components either because they genuinely believe this will make a difference or because it is a useful marketing tool - they know that journalists look inside things and are impressed by brand names.
The most popular suggestion seems to be 'leave it as it is'. However, democracy is a poor way of deciding technical issues so you need to either follow fashion and put a big expensive cap in or learn enough about electronics to understand why this is not necessary.
Note that tests done in speaker crossovers tell you nothing about coupling capacitors, as coupling caps handle smaller signals and do not filter within the audio band.
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Read,read and again read!!!
BTW, you might find this interesting:
Measured Differences Between Capacitors for Audio Applications
2610442-capacitor-sound
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