Saw this today https://www.kickstarter.com/project...es-outer-record-periphery-clamp?ref=discovery
Not going to get into the value proposition at $650 for a steel ring, but wondering if they actually do anything useful for the danger factor to the stylus they present. Obviously some nice added inertia where it matters, but the claim of "Expect a 25 to 50% reduction in record noise and distortion" seems waaaay too good to be true. Would be interested if anyone had actually measured this?
Also the paragraph below raises some eyebrows, but I will admit its been decades since I got any precision CNC work costed up, but can't see how they need $18k of tooling if they already are turning out rings for other turntables.
"We currently have the capacity to do the new manufacturing but require assistance in the huge engineering and tooling costs. The CNC equipment the product is produced on are top class $300,000.00 machines.
We have the experience, skill and background and we do know how to make this happen but it will require the correct tooling and research to complete the project in a timely manner. We currently manufacture the world's closest tolerance rim drive turntables and tough projects are our every day job."
But good luck to them if they can get the project de-risked by the crowd!
Not going to get into the value proposition at $650 for a steel ring, but wondering if they actually do anything useful for the danger factor to the stylus they present. Obviously some nice added inertia where it matters, but the claim of "Expect a 25 to 50% reduction in record noise and distortion" seems waaaay too good to be true. Would be interested if anyone had actually measured this?
Also the paragraph below raises some eyebrows, but I will admit its been decades since I got any precision CNC work costed up, but can't see how they need $18k of tooling if they already are turning out rings for other turntables.
"We currently have the capacity to do the new manufacturing but require assistance in the huge engineering and tooling costs. The CNC equipment the product is produced on are top class $300,000.00 machines.
We have the experience, skill and background and we do know how to make this happen but it will require the correct tooling and research to complete the project in a timely manner. We currently manufacture the world's closest tolerance rim drive turntables and tough projects are our every day job."
But good luck to them if they can get the project de-risked by the crowd!
As a machinist and a former shop owner I think it's total BS! Yes, it will be expensive to have some stainless steel rings either plasma cut or waterjet cut. Plasma is quicker but leaves a HAZ (heat affected Zone) that is tougher to machine off. And yes, there is a lot of waste, it needs to be cut out of plate. Possibly there is thick walled tube available but I wouldn't count on it.
As far as tooling and engineering cost go I think what is really going on here is that someone wants one of these custom made and choked on the price. Now they started a "Kick Start" to get other folks involved so that the one time tooling and fixturing cost can be amortized.
If this was a TT manufacture it would be easy for them to write off the fixturing cost as part of doing business. Any special tooling and fixturing is always paid by the customer. I have made parts were the tooling and fixturing cost way more that the material and machine time.
By the way, with a large CNC lathe, this is a pretty simple part to produce.
BillWojo
As far as tooling and engineering cost go I think what is really going on here is that someone wants one of these custom made and choked on the price. Now they started a "Kick Start" to get other folks involved so that the one time tooling and fixturing cost can be amortized.
If this was a TT manufacture it would be easy for them to write off the fixturing cost as part of doing business. Any special tooling and fixturing is always paid by the customer. I have made parts were the tooling and fixturing cost way more that the material and machine time.
By the way, with a large CNC lathe, this is a pretty simple part to produce.
BillWojo
"less waste but might make balancing more tricky"
Doable. Better than throwing away a slug of metal. Even plain steel cost more today than a few years ago, but I bet they're wanting a non magnetic metal which costs even more.
Doable. Better than throwing away a slug of metal. Even plain steel cost more today than a few years ago, but I bet they're wanting a non magnetic metal which costs even more.
actually thinking about it you don't have to have contiguous metal just balanced mass.so could be in sections held together with something else
It would most likely need to be anti magnetic. Needs to be heavy so that leaves you with a stainless steel alloy or possibly bronze of some sort.
Yes, rolling a ring and welding would work also. Machining might be a bit trickier though with all the built up residual stress left in it.
I like the idea of segments, they could be CNC machined out of short bars and held together by spot welding a thin stainless band to them. Sand blast the machined stainless bars after machining to give them a satin type finish and get rid of the milling marks. I really think that could be a viable product.
BillWojo
Yes, rolling a ring and welding would work also. Machining might be a bit trickier though with all the built up residual stress left in it.
I like the idea of segments, they could be CNC machined out of short bars and held together by spot welding a thin stainless band to them. Sand blast the machined stainless bars after machining to give them a satin type finish and get rid of the milling marks. I really think that could be a viable product.
BillWojo
Number one I would not play anything that distorted on my turntable. Number two I did not hear anything off of the record after the clamp was installed. Number three I could also hear audible rumble from something on the video!!! I use platter matter on my turntable, and that kills all the noise I need!!!!
A turntable bearing has been designed for the load of the platter it is supplied with, a heavy periphery ring is just like a 2kg record clamp- a crap idea. Especially on a deck like the 1210 that has a bearing that has been designed down to a price and has no sacrifical thrust surface.
With a platter ring and heavy clamp you'll have loaded that 1210 up with 3kg+ of weight- on a deck that comes with 1.7kg of bearing supported weight. I doubt Technics intended it to support 3x the original mass regularly.
I'd take a light ring with a clamping mechanism.
With a platter ring and heavy clamp you'll have loaded that 1210 up with 3kg+ of weight- on a deck that comes with 1.7kg of bearing supported weight. I doubt Technics intended it to support 3x the original mass regularly.
I'd take a light ring with a clamping mechanism.
I have a friend with a Merrill with the peripheral clamp ring, it does work well on a table designed for it, and does help flatten mildly warped records. To be effective the clamp impinges into the lead in area and with many cartridges a slight mistake can result in a knackered cantilever.
Other than the benefits one might expect from clamping to a non-resonant platter (which can mostly be accomplished much more safely with a center clamp or weight) I cannot see any particular benefit and quite a lot of risk.
Other than the benefits one might expect from clamping to a non-resonant platter (which can mostly be accomplished much more safely with a center clamp or weight) I cannot see any particular benefit and quite a lot of risk.
I have made such a thing for my Denon DP-80 mods.
I managed to CNC cut out of inox a proper ring that does wonders to the sound coming out the record.
It is tricky to produce and i have had a couple accidents ruining samples...
I tried to make it less than 1.5 kilos...1350gr to be exact.
With an almost 500 grams center weight it loaded the spindle with almost 2 Kgs of mass.
But i wouldn't risk it on an unmodified spindle/thrust plate...
As for cost...I can't see it being produced for anything less than 500 euros (at least when you cut from a solid metal plate that is 2cm thick)...
I managed to CNC cut out of inox a proper ring that does wonders to the sound coming out the record.
It is tricky to produce and i have had a couple accidents ruining samples...
I tried to make it less than 1.5 kilos...1350gr to be exact.
With an almost 500 grams center weight it loaded the spindle with almost 2 Kgs of mass.
But i wouldn't risk it on an unmodified spindle/thrust plate...
As for cost...I can't see it being produced for anything less than 500 euros (at least when you cut from a solid metal plate that is 2cm thick)...
bearing shouldn't really be an issue for technics range as replacements or uprated bearings are cheap and even a doubling in mass won't make the thrust plate self destruct in 6 months? Inertia is not a bearing problem.
What about A vacuum system to suck the record to the turntable mat. Less reliable, but more effective.
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I d`nt play any record without a outerlimit. ( 1400 gr. )
The clamp is a Clearaudio twister. ( Delrin )
If i may add a thing or two about the design of such a thing.
Anything more than 1.5 kilos is an overkill.
Any (reasonably) warped record will flatten with such a peripheral weight.
The moment of inertia added is enormous and will greatly aid speed stability.
You definitely need a center weight (in the range of 400-700 grams) to counteract the tendency of the record to lift in the center because of the added weight at the periphery...unless you have a screw down clamp that can have the same impact.
This extra weight will have an impact on the longevity of the ball/thrust plate combo.
It is better to keep the center of rotating mass as low as possible so the designs that "hug" the platter are inherently better.
Having a better contact with the platter/mat/felt whatever, will show off more prominently the character that these materials impose on the sound...
Anything more than 1.5 kilos is an overkill.
Any (reasonably) warped record will flatten with such a peripheral weight.
The moment of inertia added is enormous and will greatly aid speed stability.
You definitely need a center weight (in the range of 400-700 grams) to counteract the tendency of the record to lift in the center because of the added weight at the periphery...unless you have a screw down clamp that can have the same impact.
This extra weight will have an impact on the longevity of the ball/thrust plate combo.
It is better to keep the center of rotating mass as low as possible so the designs that "hug" the platter are inherently better.
Having a better contact with the platter/mat/felt whatever, will show off more prominently the character that these materials impose on the sound...
Mr. Denham has been selling turntable accessories for quite awhile along with complete turntables.
He has an extraordinary shop where he does bespoke work for airplane manufacturers. BIG airplane manufacturers though I think some of that business has gone away and this led him into making weights, clamps, etc.
He is a good person and he makes beautiful stuff.
I use six of his copper mats to add mass to my LENCO and I have one of the lighter copper periphery rings. I have never had any trouble with it other than it does impinge on the initial grooves of some records.
The funny thing about periphery clamps (and I have been using them since my MERRILL turntable from twenty years ago) is that they are not always optimal. They do tend to overdamp the record just like vacuum systems.
I have come to think that a center weight is all you need.
This periphery clamp seems more suited to increasing platter inertia than anything else. AS noted before, any warp that could be flattened with weight would be flattened with less than the weight of the proposed clamp. So if you have a table that could use some additional speed stability this could be the answer though I do worry that there could be as many sonic downsides as benefits.
Seems to me, if the TECHNICS table is in need of greater inertia something that covers the platter entirely with this periphery weight as part of the whole would probably be a better solution. Less steel to throw away.
For me, I wanted the periphery clamp to work sonic miracles and it doesn't. I do not have many records with warps, anyway. Can't remember the last time I played a warped record. The sound will initially seem better but it is only different and after a few weeks of using it I put it aside. I have returned to using it a few times and always come to the same conclusion after a couple of weeks.
I have not even mentioned what a pain it is to use. Getting it properly centered take time even with the supplied jig. In fact, it is quicker to get it centered without the jig since (at least the one I have) does not fit all that tightly - plenty of wiggle room and that is not ideal.
The products I USE from Mr. Denham are indispensable and beautifully made but I would recommend caution before jumping on the periphery clamp enthusiasm. Of course, I cannot assume my experience is universal.
George Merrill's idea made great sense when the clamp was part of the platter but even then it was a pain to use. You were stuck using it with that table and it did spoil the first minute of most of the records in my collection.
Records are surprisingly well damped as they are, unless you have lots of DYNAGROOVES in your collection.
He has an extraordinary shop where he does bespoke work for airplane manufacturers. BIG airplane manufacturers though I think some of that business has gone away and this led him into making weights, clamps, etc.
He is a good person and he makes beautiful stuff.
I use six of his copper mats to add mass to my LENCO and I have one of the lighter copper periphery rings. I have never had any trouble with it other than it does impinge on the initial grooves of some records.
The funny thing about periphery clamps (and I have been using them since my MERRILL turntable from twenty years ago) is that they are not always optimal. They do tend to overdamp the record just like vacuum systems.
I have come to think that a center weight is all you need.
This periphery clamp seems more suited to increasing platter inertia than anything else. AS noted before, any warp that could be flattened with weight would be flattened with less than the weight of the proposed clamp. So if you have a table that could use some additional speed stability this could be the answer though I do worry that there could be as many sonic downsides as benefits.
Seems to me, if the TECHNICS table is in need of greater inertia something that covers the platter entirely with this periphery weight as part of the whole would probably be a better solution. Less steel to throw away.
For me, I wanted the periphery clamp to work sonic miracles and it doesn't. I do not have many records with warps, anyway. Can't remember the last time I played a warped record. The sound will initially seem better but it is only different and after a few weeks of using it I put it aside. I have returned to using it a few times and always come to the same conclusion after a couple of weeks.
I have not even mentioned what a pain it is to use. Getting it properly centered take time even with the supplied jig. In fact, it is quicker to get it centered without the jig since (at least the one I have) does not fit all that tightly - plenty of wiggle room and that is not ideal.
The products I USE from Mr. Denham are indispensable and beautifully made but I would recommend caution before jumping on the periphery clamp enthusiasm. Of course, I cannot assume my experience is universal.
George Merrill's idea made great sense when the clamp was part of the platter but even then it was a pain to use. You were stuck using it with that table and it did spoil the first minute of most of the records in my collection.
Records are surprisingly well damped as they are, unless you have lots of DYNAGROOVES in your collection.
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