So having read that (Logically) crossovers are affected badly by vibration and (logically again) the speaker cabinet is a bad place to locate them I decided to outboard the crossover from my Wilson Benesch Square 2's. They only have a hi pass filter to the crossover so this is easy.
I have done this BUT my question is now should I place the crossover next to the amp OR should I place it next to the speaker?
I can see arguments in both directions, both + and - ones. Is there a definitive answer or is it a "whatever sounds best" ?
Thanks in advance!
I have done this BUT my question is now should I place the crossover next to the amp OR should I place it next to the speaker?
I can see arguments in both directions, both + and - ones. Is there a definitive answer or is it a "whatever sounds best" ?
Thanks in advance!
There is no answer everyone is going to agree on. I would say, even if there is a difference, see if it's worth it to your ears. There's not even agreement that all crossovers are affected by vibration. I'm not saying it's not possible, just that I have yet to read a serious treatment of this, which is odd since you'd think it would be easy to test.
Try it this way. Put the crossover near the speaker. Bi-wire it so the woofer goes direct to the amp, and there's a separate run to the crossover. Listen. Then try again without the bi-wiring by connecting from the woofer to the crossover input.
Next, try bi-wiring again only with the high-pass filter near the amp. Is any of it worth it to you? Only you can tell.
Try it this way. Put the crossover near the speaker. Bi-wire it so the woofer goes direct to the amp, and there's a separate run to the crossover. Listen. Then try again without the bi-wiring by connecting from the woofer to the crossover input.
Next, try bi-wiring again only with the high-pass filter near the amp. Is any of it worth it to you? Only you can tell.
Look up
I have and either it is the brain damage or I'm not phrasing it correctly in the search but i got nothing useful.
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Hi
I did not mention initially so as to keep the OP short but I have actually tried both in the following fashion:
A)
Amp - speaker cable - Woofer
Amp - jumper - Hi Pass Filter - speaker cable - Tweeter
B)
Amp - speaker cable - Woofer
Amp - speaker cable - Hi Pass Filter - jumper -Tweeter
NOW - the first thing to say is there is a BIG difference between inside the cabinet and out.
2nd - there is also a big difference between config A and B - but not as big as IN/OUT of cabinet.
3rd - It is very hard to tell if any of these are better than the other - they are so different it had be checking that i had not hooked up the tweeters out of phase with the woofer of something. The differences are NOT the ones i would expect at all and they confuse me - to say the least!?!?!?
a) The speakers over all seem noticeably louder
b) The bass seams more extended and more controlled
c) The range at the top seems much increased
d) Micro detail is much improved
e) Stereo imaging has apparently vanished and i have two speakers that sounds more like left channel mono and right channels mono than stereo
f) Mid range has also seemingly vanished (this could be a feature of an overly exaggerated mid-range previously I guess)
The woofer and tweeter were previously bi - wired and these changes really are not subtle.
I did not mention initially so as to keep the OP short but I have actually tried both in the following fashion:
A)
Amp - speaker cable - Woofer
Amp - jumper - Hi Pass Filter - speaker cable - Tweeter
B)
Amp - speaker cable - Woofer
Amp - speaker cable - Hi Pass Filter - jumper -Tweeter
NOW - the first thing to say is there is a BIG difference between inside the cabinet and out.
2nd - there is also a big difference between config A and B - but not as big as IN/OUT of cabinet.
3rd - It is very hard to tell if any of these are better than the other - they are so different it had be checking that i had not hooked up the tweeters out of phase with the woofer of something. The differences are NOT the ones i would expect at all and they confuse me - to say the least!?!?!?
a) The speakers over all seem noticeably louder
b) The bass seams more extended and more controlled
c) The range at the top seems much increased
d) Micro detail is much improved
e) Stereo imaging has apparently vanished and i have two speakers that sounds more like left channel mono and right channels mono than stereo
f) Mid range has also seemingly vanished (this could be a feature of an overly exaggerated mid-range previously I guess)
The woofer and tweeter were previously bi - wired and these changes really are not subtle.
I usually use solid wire and I keep it divided 1 m from the X-over and 1 m from the amplifier, be it series or parallel. Or just 1 m directly attached to speaker's terminals then X-over and then wire to the amplifier (now I tend to avoid soldering so I make many turns around speaker's terminals then some gum tube to keep it tight and I use mammouth to connect e.g. one leg of a capacitor or simply twist stranded cable around it, or the coil ). Binding posts I avoid, either.
Hi Stuck,
That's really interesting! Could you please take a pic of your crossover? I'm very very curious to see just what parts. After Steve (System7) suggested it I've done some testing with inductive and capacitive coupling and found pretty interesting results. I'm wondering if some of what we call "microphonics" is magnetically induced? That is, that the problem is not that a coil or cap is shaking, but that the coil is shaking next to a cap, and that this causes the magnetic field to move across the capacitor. Just theories. Would love to measure something cool like this.
Best,
Erik
That's really interesting!
Could you please take a pic of your crossover? I'm very very curious to see just what parts. After Steve (System7) suggested it I've done some testing with inductive and capacitive coupling and found pretty interesting results. I'm wondering if some of what we call "microphonics" is magnetically induced? That is, that the problem is not that a coil or cap is shaking, but that the coil is shaking next to a cap, and that this causes the magnetic field to move across the capacitor. Just theories. Would love to measure something cool like this. Best,
Erik
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Also, you may need to adjust your speaker toe-in, but why this would change now, I have no idea. Some of the best imaging cables I've ever used are high-capacitance which tended to roll off the top end. I wonder if having enough treble actually diminishes our sense of imaging? I should try this... heheheh.
Also, if you can hear that big a difference, worth measuring if you can.
Some of the best imaging cables I've ever used are high-capacitance which tended to roll off the top end. I wonder if having enough treble actually diminishes our sense of imaging? I should try this... heheheh.Also, if you can hear that big a difference, worth measuring if you can.
Hi
I can not measure I am sorry - but its a "my GF could tel the difference in the hall way" level of difference from inside the cabinet to outside.
MY theory is this:
The crossover was positioned inside the top tweeter compartment of the speaker inside very soft foam. I guess to isolate it from the cabinet. However this meant it was pretty much directly above the woofer driver magnet - now as much as we like it or not this magnet is moving backwards and forwards in the opposite direction to the cone (possibly only 0.5mm or less) but an isolated and hence stationary crossover above it is moving further in and further out of a strong magnetic field by 0.5mm and that crossover has a 0.22mH coil - that is a lot of turns of wire to be moving in and out of a magnetic field and expecting to be generating no voltage. Im mentally comparing this to a MMC with a tiny magnet and a tiny coil. One measurement i can give you is that the crossover was sat in a 4000 uT magnetic field varying at about 500 uT per cm (according to my iPhone 6) so 0.5mm of moment = 50uT.
I tried to look up the rest and work out what voltage that would be at say 500hz - does anyone with a fully functional brain wants to give this a go? It was well past my abilities, I have just spent 5 mins trying to remember the word abilities!
eriksquires - I wanted to keep everything else the same for now just to find out what was going on here without introducing other variables.
My other thought (because Wilson Benesch make a big thing of each driver having individually hand (applied) damping to match each other and the cabinets) is that i have "undone" tuning that had been done to counter these affects?
I can not measure I am sorry - but its a "my GF could tel the difference in the hall way" level of difference from inside the cabinet to outside.
MY theory is this:
The crossover was positioned inside the top tweeter compartment of the speaker inside very soft foam. I guess to isolate it from the cabinet. However this meant it was pretty much directly above the woofer driver magnet - now as much as we like it or not this magnet is moving backwards and forwards in the opposite direction to the cone (possibly only 0.5mm or less) but an isolated and hence stationary crossover above it is moving further in and further out of a strong magnetic field by 0.5mm and that crossover has a 0.22mH coil - that is a lot of turns of wire to be moving in and out of a magnetic field and expecting to be generating no voltage. Im mentally comparing this to a MMC with a tiny magnet and a tiny coil. One measurement i can give you is that the crossover was sat in a 4000 uT magnetic field varying at about 500 uT per cm (according to my iPhone 6) so 0.5mm of moment = 50uT.
I tried to look up the rest and work out what voltage that would be at say 500hz - does anyone with a fully functional brain wants to give this a go? It was well past my abilities, I have just spent 5 mins trying to remember the word abilities!
eriksquires - I wanted to keep everything else the same for now just to find out what was going on here without introducing other variables.
My other thought (because Wilson Benesch make a big thing of each driver having individually hand (applied) damping to match each other and the cabinets) is that i have "undone" tuning that had been done to counter these affects?
If she can tell the difference in the hall way, your room acoustics must be pretty good.
Best,
Erik
No - my walls are very thin! In Bulgaria you dont get acoustic reflections off your walls - they are acoustically transparent. The reflections are from the neighbor sitting in his chair and the TV he is watching!
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OK - I have a little light to shed on the situation. Not a full answer but a bit more info.
Sound Stage.
The speakers were very widely spaced for the sitting position previously, lots and lots of re-positioning went into finding out that this position was the best. And a high degree of "toe-in" as well.
In desperation i moved the speakers to what would be a more "usual" position and things quickly resolved into 3D sound stage - not a good one but at least a sound stage. More messing about and the "toe-in" was removed, a bit more wiggling back and forth and we had something reasonably good.
The next revelation was that what I had previously thought of as 1 guitar say was in fact 2 guitars 1 left, 1 right - not one center.
I think what has happened is previously I was having to place the speakers excessively far apart to create a better illusion of a sound-stage - when the C/O was out-boarded and the treble detail etc improved (and remember I am listening at lower power levels because of the increased volume):
A) The speakers were simply too far apart to resolver a sound stage
B) Some instruments believed to be 1 central are shown to be 2, one L one R. It takes quite a while for your brain to accept that the guitar you know is at position X and has been for 10 years is now 2 - one at Y and one at Z.
Increased Volume
I think this is a perception issue - there is a VERY marked difference in the volume I "hear". I used to listen with the dial at 12 O'c. Now it is at 10 O'c for the same perceived listening level. What has become apparent is that quite a lot of bass is made up of more complex higher frequencies as well. This is now especially noticeable on the lower registers of piano - I think it is the speed of the initial attack and hence the "ferocity" that has increased giving the perception of higher Db levels.
Mid-range
Still seems missing - but lets face it this is the area easiest for a speaker to re-produce - so an increase in the bass definition and attach, a lift in the treble detail and range is probably likely to give a perceived loss in the mid range!??!!?
The initial conclusion (and i will try and measure this for you guys but no promises - I really do have brain damage from a mugging last year and I am well short on functional memory) is out boarding the crossover has made a difference as big as a speaker upgrade (statements only pertain to my speakers) - infact it is very much like a speaker upgrade in that the entire character of the speaker changes, they are now much closer together and closer to the rear wall. For the first time ever I fell asleep listening to them - previously they were enjoyable but fatiguing. Now they seem to let you listen to the music as apposed to demanding that you listen to the music.
It is the single most interesting thing i have ever done with my Hi Fi. The results were SO FAR away from the "possible slight improvement in treble" that was expected.
I will make no pretense to draw a scientific conclusion over this. What I would say is if it is not a huge pain in the *** with your speakers - try it. Id love to know is this is a quirk of the Wilson Benesch Square 2's or if everyone gets such a transformation.
It does at least prove that we dont all always love the upgrades due to false physiological effects - I HATED what i had done initially - only curiosity stopped me shoving them straight back in the cabinet LOL.
I am now very happy I did not. More info as it emerges......
Sound Stage.
The speakers were very widely spaced for the sitting position previously, lots and lots of re-positioning went into finding out that this position was the best. And a high degree of "toe-in" as well.
In desperation i moved the speakers to what would be a more "usual" position and things quickly resolved into 3D sound stage - not a good one but at least a sound stage. More messing about and the "toe-in" was removed, a bit more wiggling back and forth and we had something reasonably good.
The next revelation was that what I had previously thought of as 1 guitar say was in fact 2 guitars 1 left, 1 right - not one center.
I think what has happened is previously I was having to place the speakers excessively far apart to create a better illusion of a sound-stage - when the C/O was out-boarded and the treble detail etc improved (and remember I am listening at lower power levels because of the increased volume):
A) The speakers were simply too far apart to resolver a sound stage
B) Some instruments believed to be 1 central are shown to be 2, one L one R. It takes quite a while for your brain to accept that the guitar you know is at position X and has been for 10 years is now 2 - one at Y and one at Z.
Increased Volume
I think this is a perception issue - there is a VERY marked difference in the volume I "hear". I used to listen with the dial at 12 O'c. Now it is at 10 O'c for the same perceived listening level. What has become apparent is that quite a lot of bass is made up of more complex higher frequencies as well. This is now especially noticeable on the lower registers of piano - I think it is the speed of the initial attack and hence the "ferocity" that has increased giving the perception of higher Db levels.
Mid-range
Still seems missing - but lets face it this is the area easiest for a speaker to re-produce - so an increase in the bass definition and attach, a lift in the treble detail and range is probably likely to give a perceived loss in the mid range!??!!?
The initial conclusion (and i will try and measure this for you guys but no promises - I really do have brain damage from a mugging last year and I am well short on functional memory) is out boarding the crossover has made a difference as big as a speaker upgrade (statements only pertain to my speakers) - infact it is very much like a speaker upgrade in that the entire character of the speaker changes, they are now much closer together and closer to the rear wall. For the first time ever I fell asleep listening to them - previously they were enjoyable but fatiguing. Now they seem to let you listen to the music as apposed to demanding that you listen to the music.
It is the single most interesting thing i have ever done with my Hi Fi. The results were SO FAR away from the "possible slight improvement in treble" that was expected.
I will make no pretense to draw a scientific conclusion over this. What I would say is if it is not a huge pain in the *** with your speakers - try it. Id love to know is this is a quirk of the Wilson Benesch Square 2's or if everyone gets such a transformation.
It does at least prove that we dont all always love the upgrades due to false physiological effects - I HATED what i had done initially - only curiosity stopped me shoving them straight back in the cabinet LOL.
I am now very happy I did not. More info as it emerges......
There is one inductor and the cabinet had 2 big neodymium magnets. A quick check showed that 4500uT where the crossover was is the same as having the iphone sat on top an 8" O/D 1.5" thick speaker magnet of ferrite - so its a hell of a magnetic field!
I would love to find out if this IS limited to my speakers or if other people get similar results!
I have to say - I am surprised just how "built down to a price" these Wilson Benesch Square 2 speakers are! I absolutely can not remember how much I paid for them and I can not find a current price list but I think the current price is about £3,500 (feel free to correct me) - however much they were it was not throw away money!!
The base is connected via little alloy screw in sockets that has suffered metal fatigue and broken up, the damping was by way of 3 pieces of very randomly shoved in foam except behind the driver where some duvet fluff nestled. The cabinets are well braced but no damping had been applied. The wearing is good quality very thick silver dip plated OFC but the + & - colors were different between the two speakers. The drivers are held in by 4 x 20mm x 3mm screws with a very shallow thread - as this has to go through 6mm of driver frame AND has 5mm of point there is only 9mm of very shallow thread holding the driver into the MDF. 8 years of the driver thumping backward and forward and the screws can now be spun round in the holes - the mastic is the primary fixing mechanism.
The spacers at the bottom for the base port outlet had washers 0.8mm thick - photographs on the net of these speakers and the gap looked about 2-3mm, i found out why such thin washers had been used - the bolts were only 50% into the sockets. 3mm washers and you would have had them on by 1/2 a thread.
The cabinet finish is beyond reproach - absolutely staggering quality but looking inside is a bit of a shock!!!!
I have to say - I am surprised just how "built down to a price" these Wilson Benesch Square 2 speakers are! I absolutely can not remember how much I paid for them and I can not find a current price list but I think the current price is about £3,500 (feel free to correct me) - however much they were it was not throw away money!!
The base is connected via little alloy screw in sockets that has suffered metal fatigue and broken up, the damping was by way of 3 pieces of very randomly shoved in foam except behind the driver where some duvet fluff nestled. The cabinets are well braced but no damping had been applied. The wearing is good quality very thick silver dip plated OFC but the + & - colors were different between the two speakers. The drivers are held in by 4 x 20mm x 3mm screws with a very shallow thread - as this has to go through 6mm of driver frame AND has 5mm of point there is only 9mm of very shallow thread holding the driver into the MDF. 8 years of the driver thumping backward and forward and the screws can now be spun round in the holes - the mastic is the primary fixing mechanism.
The spacers at the bottom for the base port outlet had washers 0.8mm thick - photographs on the net of these speakers and the gap looked about 2-3mm, i found out why such thin washers had been used - the bolts were only 50% into the sockets. 3mm washers and you would have had them on by 1/2 a thread.
The cabinet finish is beyond reproach - absolutely staggering quality but looking inside is a bit of a shock!!!!
That's my point. You find a brand you like the sound of, admire the looks of, fall in love with them but you have no idea how often this happens until you start testing them....then you realize how bad commercial speaker manufacturing really is!
That's why I'm now so suspicious of them. In my case, I found this out with Focal's. The lead on a coil became invisibly broken to the PCB, so one didn't even have a working woofer. Just midrange and tweeter. Never mind the other crap I found.
Of course, brands vary. Just because brand F has poor quality control doesn't mean brand Y will too. I've just set my expectations much lower than before.
Best,
Erik
Welcome to my world!
In the Focals I found out all sorts of terrible crap. Undersized, underdamped tweeter motors (still in the latest $16k Sopra's) and a crossover deliberately designed to minimize the impedance and make the speakers seem more "discerning."
The one thing Focal still seems to do well is the 6" drivers. Otherwise outside of an OEM deal like Wilson has, the tweeters are almost all universally crap and the crossovers ridiculous for the price points.
Best,
Erik
In the Focals I found out all sorts of terrible crap. Undersized, underdamped tweeter motors (still in the latest $16k Sopra's) and a crossover deliberately designed to minimize the impedance and make the speakers seem more "discerning."
The one thing Focal still seems to do well is the 6" drivers. Otherwise outside of an OEM deal like Wilson has, the tweeters are almost all universally crap and the crossovers ridiculous for the price points.
Best,
Erik
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