Pan said:
Why would you think that? I would say that the opposite is true. Just because I claim that distortion is not a major factor does not mean that the speakers HAVE a lot of distortion. At normal listening levels these speakers are loafing - hardly any excursion, virtually no thermal problems, both drivers have shorting rings, the cabinets are well braced and CLD. I think that you are just guessing here and I'd say that you guessed wrong.
cuibono said:
While four way systems may make the on-axis response better they are not going to do much to improve the off axis response. There will still be a dip in the polar response at each crossover, but now there are three of them. Four way does improve thermal problems and power handling since each driver has lower BW, but you do get into a serious cost in crossovers.
Russell Dawkins said:
The Orion's played very loudly. I played old rock through them as almost concert levels, and distortion wasn't an issue. I bet they can handle a soprano at live levels - thats what they were designed for, anyway...
gedlee said:
Thanks. I'm hoping to minimize the dips to where they are much less of an issue. I'm triamping, and doing crossover in the computer, initially. When they are finalized, the crossover will either be a line level asp, like the Orions, or I'll use a DEQ2496, which might be easier (but digital still...).
I just checked and there is no copper cap at the voice coil, so maybe it doesn't have a shorting ring. Flux modulation is not much of an issue in a compression driver - lots of flux and not much current. Mostly use a copper cap is use in a CD to reduce the inductance for more HF output. My mistake - maybe - I'll have to ask my friends at B&C.
Pan said:
After listening to the Summas for a solid six months almost EVERYTHING else sounds drenched in 2nd harmonic distortion.
I'm not sure if it's a blessing or a curse, but I can spot distortion from a mile away now.
It's particularly apparent on small speakers.
Having said that, I don't find it especially offensive. I've learned what it sounds like, and I know when it's there, but it's not as irritating as people would think.
The sound of a dome tweeter is a lot more offensive to me really. They all sound sibilant now.
I saw SL's measurements on the driver's distortion. Is there one for summa's drivers ? Link please.
I heard one of the factor that Orion sounds great is the drivers being used (thus ultra exxie
)
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/mid_dist.htm
That makes it: Orion is great because:
- They are dipoles
- Great drivers used
- Correct implementation of XOs
Still not sure the order of importance though. I just hope driver quality (= expensive) is not too high in the order.
I heard one of the factor that Orion sounds great is the drivers being used (thus ultra exxie
)http://www.linkwitzlab.com/mid_dist.htm
That makes it: Orion is great because:
- They are dipoles
- Great drivers used
- Correct implementation of XOs
Still not sure the order of importance though. I just hope driver quality (= expensive) is not too high in the order.
I too would enjoy seeing some nonlinear distortion graphs/spectra for the GedLee designs. I'm interested in seeing if there is a trend for drivers (particularly woofers) with higher power handling to have lower distortion. I guess OB would exacerbate power/displacement related distortions, unfortunately.
Here , a little down the page, SL lists his priorities for quality reproduction - with nonlinear distortion at the top. It is arguable that there are newer drivers with lower distortion that cost less, but for at least 10 drivers for a clone, its still a lot of money.
Here , a little down the page, SL lists his priorities for quality reproduction - with nonlinear distortion at the top. It is arguable that there are newer drivers with lower distortion that cost less, but for at least 10 drivers for a clone, its still a lot of money.
How about everyone does some research by reading everything posted on the Geddes site as well as SL's site.
Dr. Geddes has already done distortion tests which contradict a good deal of what everyone spends a great deal of time looking at. These might just become industry standard someday but for now it will make people question the current trends.
Dr. Geddes has already done distortion tests which contradict a good deal of what everyone spends a great deal of time looking at. These might just become industry standard someday but for now it will make people question the current trends.
Goskers,
I think you should do some background reading. With a all due respect to Dr. Gedde's work, his conclusions, to paraphrase, say that THD as a single figure, says very little, if anything about how something sounds.
Which we've all known for years. This is akin to amplifiers. Ask anyone if you can tell how good an amplifier sounds by reading it's THD figure.
THD as a calculated figure is heavily dominated with the highest distortion component, which is often 2nd and 3rd orders, but the overall sound is also affected with higher order components, which is not reflected in a single THD figure.
Earl's findings is not the same as saying that measuring distortion (of other forms) is completely waste of time.
Compare a 15" woofer's non-linear distortion spectra between 20-160Hz to a 5.25" woofer and you will see.
Broad sweeping generalisations are misleading.
I would rather look forward to reading Earl's peer-reviewed research publication, with all the math, as formula as to how he constructs his GedLee index. Which I am willing to bet, takes into account various distortion components.
I think you should do some background reading. With a all due respect to Dr. Gedde's work, his conclusions, to paraphrase, say that THD as a single figure, says very little, if anything about how something sounds.
Which we've all known for years. This is akin to amplifiers. Ask anyone if you can tell how good an amplifier sounds by reading it's THD figure.
THD as a calculated figure is heavily dominated with the highest distortion component, which is often 2nd and 3rd orders, but the overall sound is also affected with higher order components, which is not reflected in a single THD figure.
Earl's findings is not the same as saying that measuring distortion (of other forms) is completely waste of time.
Compare a 15" woofer's non-linear distortion spectra between 20-160Hz to a 5.25" woofer and you will see.
Broad sweeping generalisations are misleading.
I would rather look forward to reading Earl's peer-reviewed research publication, with all the math, as formula as to how he constructs his GedLee index. Which I am willing to bet, takes into account various distortion components.
Our discussion might not go round and round so much if we were more careful with our terms:
A few pages back, we went through this. We aren't talking about THD. The above statement might even make it seem like Gedees/Lee don't care about nonlinear distortion, but then why would they have created a new way to describe it?
Anyways, lets see some data!
An interesting side note - SL uses multitone signals for nonlinear distortion testing, which may be a practical way to get useful relative ratings between drivers, in that it may approximate weighting for higher order harmonics, similar to the Gedlee metric. I don't do these sort of comparisons, but rely on Zaphs swept single tone measurements, assuming driver will trend the same.
gedlee said:
A few pages back, we went through this. We aren't talking about THD. The above statement might even make it seem like Gedees/Lee don't care about nonlinear distortion, but then why would they have created a new way to describe it?
Anyways, lets see some data!
An interesting side note - SL uses multitone signals for nonlinear distortion testing, which may be a practical way to get useful relative ratings between drivers, in that it may approximate weighting for higher order harmonics, similar to the Gedlee metric. I don't do these sort of comparisons, but rely on Zaphs swept single tone measurements, assuming driver will trend the same.
gedlee said:
Have you discussed this with the guys at Harman? ;-) Maybe you should inform them about all the errors they have been making working on the Revel line of speakers.
It's not about on axis which can be made perfectly flat with even one driver. And as I mentioned earlier four way (four driver) may very well decrease thermal handling since with small drivers comes small voice coils. For many users it may be fine though. Horses for courses.
/Peter
goskers said:
I don't think so. I don't know a single pro audio designer that believs a single THD number tells much about the audible performance of audio gear. It's been known for a looong time that you need to look at distortion at various levels and also looking at the distortion spectrum. FFT analysers is everyday tools.
Also it's easy to get lost and miss obvious things when doing tests.
/Peter
gedlee said:
Because drivers with bumps in their impedance curve (other than the fundamentla resonance) use to have problems with stored energy. Also because drivers without shorting rings use to have relatively high distortion. Also seems slightly strange to me that a designer of a speaker does not know the parts that he use for the design. Also because big paper drivers use to have problems in the upper range.
Also because anyone overlooking the fact that internal resonances is a very real factor with box loudspeaker is likely missing other importan design criteria.
But if you post some graphs showing that nonlinear distortion and stored energy/resonances in fact really are low in your speakers (relatively speaking) we would have an end of this discussion.
/Peter
Patrick Bateman said:
How can you hear 2nd order harmonic distortion? Sounds very strange to me.
There are dome tweeters that are extremly clean and totally without sibiliance. But sure, I've heard a few that was not very fun to listen at. I have also heard horns/compression drivers and big paper drivers sounding unnatural and/or harsh. It's better IMO to speak of specific designs than painting with a broad brush and make general and sweeping statements that has no scientificall basis. There's to much dogma and ignorance as it is in the audio industry.
/Peter
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