Hello all,
Not sure if this is the correct section to post this in...
I am currently installing a digital organ (Hauptwerk, Caen) in the chapel of the school I am attending in Italy. I have most of the details figured out, but am really struggling with what to do for a subwoofer.
For those who don't know, the organ is able to hit and sustain 16hz for as long as the organist desires. Depending on the pipes the organist uses/picks, that can be 16hz of mostly harmonics (lots of noise, not much else), or 16hz of pure fundamental tone (almost no noise, just pure earthquake mode...lots of fun!).
The room is a rather long, somewhat low rectangle of completely hard surfaces (though plenty of soft surface area when full of people) of about 5m wide by ~20m long, and varies from ~3-6m high, depending on where you are. Tile floor, plaster walls, all wooden pews (no cushions). There are several arches that come down/intrude quite far. I will get some pictures as soon as I can and post them here for better reference.
I need a sub (ideally 2) that can produce earth-shaking bass down to 16hz while sounding good - making tons of noise and things rattle is cool and all, but I need it to actually sound good.
I have only 2 requirements:
1) shake the earth while sounding good (accurate, musical production of the notes/frequencies)
2) under 1000 euro, but I'd really like to keep it under 750...less is more obviously.
Do note that I do not have ANY restrictions on how big the box(es) are/can be. I need something the size of a refrigerator or a small car? Not a problem.
I have read every thread and resource I can find about this topic (there are quite a few of them), but almost all of them are directed toward something more along the lines of a large living room...nothing for a church that I found. I feel like I have a good grasp of the basics, but not nearly enough to feel confident in this decision.
At the moment I am planning on building the sub myself, but if there is a premade solution that will satisfy what I have detailed here while saving me a bunch of effort, I'm all ears.
Not sure if this is the correct section to post this in...
I am currently installing a digital organ (Hauptwerk, Caen) in the chapel of the school I am attending in Italy. I have most of the details figured out, but am really struggling with what to do for a subwoofer.
For those who don't know, the organ is able to hit and sustain 16hz for as long as the organist desires. Depending on the pipes the organist uses/picks, that can be 16hz of mostly harmonics (lots of noise, not much else), or 16hz of pure fundamental tone (almost no noise, just pure earthquake mode...lots of fun!).
The room is a rather long, somewhat low rectangle of completely hard surfaces (though plenty of soft surface area when full of people) of about 5m wide by ~20m long, and varies from ~3-6m high, depending on where you are. Tile floor, plaster walls, all wooden pews (no cushions). There are several arches that come down/intrude quite far. I will get some pictures as soon as I can and post them here for better reference.
I need a sub (ideally 2) that can produce earth-shaking bass down to 16hz while sounding good - making tons of noise and things rattle is cool and all, but I need it to actually sound good.
I have only 2 requirements:
1) shake the earth while sounding good (accurate, musical production of the notes/frequencies)
2) under 1000 euro, but I'd really like to keep it under 750...less is more obviously.
Do note that I do not have ANY restrictions on how big the box(es) are/can be. I need something the size of a refrigerator or a small car? Not a problem.
I have read every thread and resource I can find about this topic (there are quite a few of them), but almost all of them are directed toward something more along the lines of a large living room...nothing for a church that I found. I feel like I have a good grasp of the basics, but not nearly enough to feel confident in this decision.
At the moment I am planning on building the sub myself, but if there is a premade solution that will satisfy what I have detailed here while saving me a bunch of effort, I'm all ears.
My thought (preference) is to put the sub where the current organ is (new one will not be there). Out of the way, and won't be too noticeable if I paint it.
I would think that bass corner horns would be the ticket for your requirement, though they are quite something to build, I guarantee results. Acoustics on the other hand is something that would have to be dealt with after the fact.
Hello, I guess that "distributed subs" should be installed, 2 in each niche ( one per side).
I think that the distributed spaces allow for that.
But probably it goes beyond the limits, as I guess about 250€ is the minimum for a sub, then the repeated item is not very DIY...I mean ...8-10 subs aren't that funny. A giant 15 or 18" it's more fun. Some sort of differentiation might be done...I dunno...I was reading yesterday in Car Audio forum about placing (...in the trunk!) the 60-100 Hz reproduction with 6 woofers, and the sub zone covered with bandpass configuration, I dunno!
The amplifier will run the sub, how?
The rest of the frequencies, how are they covered? Simple PA boxes?
I think that the distributed spaces allow for that.
But probably it goes beyond the limits, as I guess about 250€ is the minimum for a sub, then the repeated item is not very DIY...I mean ...8-10 subs aren't that funny. A giant 15 or 18" it's more fun. Some sort of differentiation might be done...I dunno...I was reading yesterday in Car Audio forum about placing (...in the trunk!) the 60-100 Hz reproduction with 6 woofers, and the sub zone covered with bandpass configuration, I dunno!
The amplifier will run the sub, how?
The rest of the frequencies, how are they covered? Simple PA boxes?
Hello, you should take a look at it :
https://www.passdiy.com/project/speakers/the-legend-of-el-pipe-o
https://esp.mit.edu/download/97ee66f7f9abc447ef4fe4f88b6f619d/H1142_el-pipe-o.pdf
https://www.passdiy.com/project/speakers/the-legend-of-el-pipe-o
https://esp.mit.edu/download/97ee66f7f9abc447ef4fe4f88b6f619d/H1142_el-pipe-o.pdf
Have you read through this related thread?
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/16hz-for-church-organ.272833/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/16hz-for-church-organ.272833/
Dayton Ultimax II UM18-22 in a 500 litre box with three 10 cm diameter vents 47 cm long. At 400 watts, power and excursion will be well within limits. Soundimports.eu will have them at the end of June at about €450 so you have enough left over enough for lumber and a hefty amplifier.
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Hi,
Another option is to use an italian local vendor (I don't have experience with their products, I just looked into their site).
GS Audio IRON 15" D2 for EU199.00 each. Just an example - you can search other options and post here, so we can simulate and comment.
Using around 250-liter box and 400W you can have up to 110dB SPL at 16Hz. Round ported box tuned to 18Hz (5" diameter and 37cm long)
Two of these speakers will produce a lot of bass and it's very easy to build - just a rectangular box 50cm wide x 100cm tall x 60cm depth.
PS: Very beautiful chapel, by the way! Love these cosy european places.
XMAX = 36mm, so a lot of margin with 400W
Another option is to use an italian local vendor (I don't have experience with their products, I just looked into their site).
GS Audio IRON 15" D2 for EU199.00 each. Just an example - you can search other options and post here, so we can simulate and comment.
Using around 250-liter box and 400W you can have up to 110dB SPL at 16Hz. Round ported box tuned to 18Hz (5" diameter and 37cm long)
Two of these speakers will produce a lot of bass and it's very easy to build - just a rectangular box 50cm wide x 100cm tall x 60cm depth.
PS: Very beautiful chapel, by the way! Love these cosy european places.
XMAX = 36mm, so a lot of margin with 400W
As a comparison, one GS vs one Dayton at 400 watts. Note the 18" is more efficient below 40 Hz, but at half the price of the Dayton two of the GS 15s would be louder across the band, and especially above 40 Hz at +6 dB minimum. Well done Ron! Of course you'd want two amplifiers, unless one happens to have a kilowatt-class amp which could drive 2 ohms just lying around. It's an interesting tradeoff. At least the cabinet size would be the same at 2x250 litres = 500 litres.
The impedance phase angle might be a concern: at +-50 degrees worst case the driving amplifiers could be in for a fun time.
The impedance phase angle might be a concern: at +-50 degrees worst case the driving amplifiers could be in for a fun time.
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@DSP_Geek Sure, there are multiple solutions.
I would start by searching what can be locally sourced due to taxes and freight.
In my country import tax are calculated over the final price [tax * (product price + freight)].
So, for heavy products, freight does matter.
@AMDguy Let us know what are the subwoofer options in your country, with prices, then we can think about the best solution in terms of cost/benefit.
I would start by searching what can be locally sourced due to taxes and freight.
In my country import tax are calculated over the final price [tax * (product price + freight)].
So, for heavy products, freight does matter.
@AMDguy Let us know what are the subwoofer options in your country, with prices, then we can think about the best solution in terms of cost/benefit.
Wow, this is all great info.
The main thing I'm worried about is just moving enough air. From the research I have done, getting 16hz from a box is not that hard - big driver, reasonably big box....In a small living room/house you don't really need to move much air compared to a church, even a small chapel. That being said, a couple years ago I installed an Allen digital for a church. It was about the same size, though just essentially just a cube; everything was carpet/cushions rather than hard surfaces. They had purchased 2 Allen HC-12's (full range organ speakers), which are essentially a 15" woofer in an 18"x18"x33" sealed box. While just the 2 were definitely overworked in that space, they were shockingly effective, able to get quite loud (while remaining clear), and did (do) have fantastic performance down to about 20hz (rolled off a bit for the 2-3 lowest notes. It would probably have sounded much better with 2 additional cabinets.
I guess my point with that is that only two 15" drivers were much more effective than I expected, so maybe I shouldn't be so worried.
@ron68 I really like that idea, especially the simplicity of the build. Also the lower cost of the driver would enable me to potentially have another cabinet, or more drivers.
I think it is a very good compromise to have more drivers that cost less. I would rather push the same power through more speakers if I can.
I was thinking about a (very) large sealed box with 2x 15" or 18" drivers wired together? I will pull up WinISD and run some numbers tomorrow.
The main thing I'm worried about is just moving enough air. From the research I have done, getting 16hz from a box is not that hard - big driver, reasonably big box....In a small living room/house you don't really need to move much air compared to a church, even a small chapel. That being said, a couple years ago I installed an Allen digital for a church. It was about the same size, though just essentially just a cube; everything was carpet/cushions rather than hard surfaces. They had purchased 2 Allen HC-12's (full range organ speakers), which are essentially a 15" woofer in an 18"x18"x33" sealed box. While just the 2 were definitely overworked in that space, they were shockingly effective, able to get quite loud (while remaining clear), and did (do) have fantastic performance down to about 20hz (rolled off a bit for the 2-3 lowest notes. It would probably have sounded much better with 2 additional cabinets.
I guess my point with that is that only two 15" drivers were much more effective than I expected, so maybe I shouldn't be so worried.
@ron68 I really like that idea, especially the simplicity of the build. Also the lower cost of the driver would enable me to potentially have another cabinet, or more drivers.
I think it is a very good compromise to have more drivers that cost less. I would rather push the same power through more speakers if I can.
I was thinking about a (very) large sealed box with 2x 15" or 18" drivers wired together? I will pull up WinISD and run some numbers tomorrow.
Hi!
Try to select some subwoofers options that you can buy in Italy and share with us, so we can comment on boxes for the speaker options you have.
I simulated 1 x 250-liter box with one 15" woofer.
Since your budget is 750.00 Euros, I though about 2 subwoofer (2x200=400) and still have some money to build the 2 cabinets (wood work).
I would install each one in each corner of the organ position (organ in the center).
This way you get some room gain too.
I don't have experience with horn boxes, which are more efficient, but I think that tuning a horn (or even a folded horn) to respond down to 16Hz would lead to a huge and complex construction. Others experienced with horns can comment here.
Ported box will give you flat response down to 16Hz and you can easily cross it with the other box to complete the mid and high frequencies.
I suppose you plan to use some PA woofer or even a full range for completing the frequency response (let's say from 80Hz and up).
Try to select some subwoofers options that you can buy in Italy and share with us, so we can comment on boxes for the speaker options you have.
I simulated 1 x 250-liter box with one 15" woofer.
Since your budget is 750.00 Euros, I though about 2 subwoofer (2x200=400) and still have some money to build the 2 cabinets (wood work).
I would install each one in each corner of the organ position (organ in the center).
This way you get some room gain too.
I don't have experience with horn boxes, which are more efficient, but I think that tuning a horn (or even a folded horn) to respond down to 16Hz would lead to a huge and complex construction. Others experienced with horns can comment here.
Ported box will give you flat response down to 16Hz and you can easily cross it with the other box to complete the mid and high frequencies.
I suppose you plan to use some PA woofer or even a full range for completing the frequency response (let's say from 80Hz and up).
The organ at a church I attended had many woofer boxes. Sealed boxes. You are looking for the most displacement you can get for the money. Xmax * Cone area displacement. Check out this thread dedicated to the topic. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/highest-displacement-per-woofers-2025.425534/ Churches are often closing down, so you might scan the used market.
@ron68 10x M-Audio BX-5's take care of most of the mid-high frequencies (haven't decided exactly how I will divide them into channels yet), and I will probably see if I can get some smaller/less capable sub for the bass on the keyboards (realistically only need ~40-50hz. Its the pedals that really need the oomph), while assigning the big sub (which we are discussing here) exclusively to the pedals, which is where most of the bass is needed.
While I really like almost everything about horns, the complexity of construction/design is....very, very intimidating. I don't have a ton of tools, and this is my first forte into building a speaker (of any sort.....always used production models in the past), so I worry the chances of my getting something wrong (or not just right) are very high.
@olsond3 Yes, generally in the organ world, sealed boxes have a better reputation than ported. That thread is interesting, and I really like the look of that Alpine SWG-1244, but I am concerned that it is "only" 12". It's true I can have more of them (5, maybe 6), but I don't know if that is something that I am overthinking.
Working on finding some drivers that are available for me to get my hands on.
While I really like almost everything about horns, the complexity of construction/design is....very, very intimidating. I don't have a ton of tools, and this is my first forte into building a speaker (of any sort.....always used production models in the past), so I worry the chances of my getting something wrong (or not just right) are very high.
@olsond3 Yes, generally in the organ world, sealed boxes have a better reputation than ported. That thread is interesting, and I really like the look of that Alpine SWG-1244, but I am concerned that it is "only" 12". It's true I can have more of them (5, maybe 6), but I don't know if that is something that I am overthinking.
Working on finding some drivers that are available for me to get my hands on.
I think ignore most advice until you've done some measurements in the cathedral first, you may find peaks and dips that will kill any attempt at LFE, take a small sub and do some 10~200Hz sweeps shifting the sub around to different spots.
Might find a spot that boost's LFE and others that may give decent results for higher in the range.
Might find a spot that boost's LFE and others that may give decent results for higher in the range.
@Harry72 Yes, I would like to do that, however the problem is that I am very limited with my equipment I have (almost all of my stuff is back in the US). I will see if I can gather what is needed for some basic measurements, because I 100% agree that will be a HUGE help in determining a number of factors.