Hello. After researching full range DIY I found this site to have some incredibly experienced members, thus I decided to join. My library is rectangular, approx 15 ft L x 10 ft W. 12 ft ceiling, hardwood floors. Listening position, opposite the shelves (long end). Gear: 3 WPC SET mated to ADS L 570's, swapping out intermittently with Dynaco A25's. Musical taste: Brian Bromberg, Miles, Botti, etc. From what I have researched (please keep in mind i'm green as tree bark...) this room is too small for a BLH. Any ideas on what kind of synergy shelf mounted BR's or sealed would render in this space? With this idea in mind I'm also aware of the contingent need for a sub. Thanks, TEG
Frugel-Horn Mk3 should work fine in that room. FE126En (treated or not) would be suggested given your available power.
dave
dave
Hello,
Have you considered a Full Range Open Baffle set-up with subs? Excellent for smaller spaces with good depth and transparency without the cabinet box coloration's🙂
Ramon.
Have you considered a Full Range Open Baffle set-up with subs? Excellent for smaller spaces with good depth and transparency without the cabinet box coloration's🙂
Ramon.
Well (hi !😀) I believe truth is at the end of your passage .
You can built some 1 cubic foot closed boxes to accomodate on the library.
Those will have some modern subwoofer drivers from 6 to 10" and brands like Tang Band or Seas . Connecting them in series-parallel will give a proper load to the external amplifier ,which will be provided with an active crossover ( set the low cut as low as possible ) and be able to provide at least 300 W on a 4 Ohm load 😱 (look for class D modules) .Putting an highpass filter in your SET by changing input capacitor value won't take much time .
You'll then obtain a system capable of going very low ,and putting the sub cabinets at different heights and levels will help you to get rid of room modes and having directivity in bass ..🙄
bye !
You can built some 1 cubic foot closed boxes to accomodate on the library.
Those will have some modern subwoofer drivers from 6 to 10" and brands like Tang Band or Seas . Connecting them in series-parallel will give a proper load to the external amplifier ,which will be provided with an active crossover ( set the low cut as low as possible ) and be able to provide at least 300 W on a 4 Ohm load 😱 (look for class D modules) .Putting an highpass filter in your SET by changing input capacitor value won't take much time .
You'll then obtain a system capable of going very low ,and putting the sub cabinets at different heights and levels will help you to get rid of room modes and having directivity in bass ..🙄
bye !
OBs really need a pretty big room work and to minimize their inherent colourations.
It is possible to build a very low colouration box.
dave
Putting speakers into the shelf unit would be convienient but would likely compromise the sonics. A speaker could be designed to fit in where the exsiting ones are.
I've actually just been tasked to design a Twin EL70 enclosure for something similar.
If you won't trip over them something that is out from the shelves should give better performance.
dave
I've actually just been tasked to design a Twin EL70 enclosure for something similar.
If you won't trip over them something that is out from the shelves should give better performance.
dave
Yes, true, but ugly and inconvenient. I like the "A speaker could be designed to fit in where the existing ones are" idea much better. But have them stick out a few inches and maybe put absorptive felt on the front, to minimize effects from the bookcase.
Here's my analysis:
you will end up with two small satellite speakers on shelves. The more centered you can locate the mixed-bass woofer between them, the smaller the compass the satellites need to handle. The less bass in the satellites, the smaller they will be* and the better will be their treble.
If the bass is favourably located, crossing over at 200 Hz is OK and easy to find small drivers to work very well north of there. If woofer location is as terrible as could be, 90 Hz is about as high as most people would recommend (but I'd say 130 Hz).
Simple as that.
* A single driver might work fine because of 400,000 principle; might need no enclosure to speak of. Hard to do it any way but with electronic crossover. Might end up quite good.
you will end up with two small satellite speakers on shelves. The more centered you can locate the mixed-bass woofer between them, the smaller the compass the satellites need to handle. The less bass in the satellites, the smaller they will be* and the better will be their treble.
If the bass is favourably located, crossing over at 200 Hz is OK and easy to find small drivers to work very well north of there. If woofer location is as terrible as could be, 90 Hz is about as high as most people would recommend (but I'd say 130 Hz).
Simple as that.
* A single driver might work fine because of 400,000 principle; might need no enclosure to speak of. Hard to do it any way but with electronic crossover. Might end up quite good.
Last edited:
bentoronto- headunit.
Thanks for your input on this. I've got a similar situation as Tineared galoot.
I've been fighting for over 2 years as to a serious build because of it.
If I want the speaks I'd prefer the bookcases have to go. They are needed.
I see no designs for an actual bookcase speaker that has to fit right up against the wall and will yet give me both SQ I want as well as volume for occasional 'Outlaw' moods prompted by 60's/70's Fantasies. Normal listening is Blues/Jazz & occasional Classical.
I truly love the mids I've experimented with in 3-5" FR but simply need more juice.
Ideas both of you expressed may work well for both Tin ear and I if I could get the volume needed. My room doubles for 2 channel & HT. A built in eliminates toe in and we don't have much of a 'sweet spot' as is.
Of late my thoughts have gone to thinking 2 small speakers on each bookshelf on different shelves (Ikea bowl idea comes to mind) might give me both the fidelity and volume I seek and allow large enough sound stage.
Alpair, CSS FR125 & Hi Vi 3/4bn all seem candidates & would adapt well for CC as well as surrounds.
I love big speakers but thinking that needs to be relegated to basement dedicated 2 channel room.
Thoughts?
Thanks for your input on this. I've got a similar situation as Tineared galoot.
I've been fighting for over 2 years as to a serious build because of it.
If I want the speaks I'd prefer the bookcases have to go. They are needed.
I see no designs for an actual bookcase speaker that has to fit right up against the wall and will yet give me both SQ I want as well as volume for occasional 'Outlaw' moods prompted by 60's/70's Fantasies. Normal listening is Blues/Jazz & occasional Classical.
I truly love the mids I've experimented with in 3-5" FR but simply need more juice.
Ideas both of you expressed may work well for both Tin ear and I if I could get the volume needed. My room doubles for 2 channel & HT. A built in eliminates toe in and we don't have much of a 'sweet spot' as is.
Of late my thoughts have gone to thinking 2 small speakers on each bookshelf on different shelves (Ikea bowl idea comes to mind) might give me both the fidelity and volume I seek and allow large enough sound stage.
Alpair, CSS FR125 & Hi Vi 3/4bn all seem candidates & would adapt well for CC as well as surrounds.
I love big speakers but thinking that needs to be relegated to basement dedicated 2 channel room.
Thoughts?
Greets!
Hmm, the bookcase ideally should be behind the listening position (LP) since you want a diffuse rear wall, so adding decorative pillows and/or 'dust collectors' to break up any cavity resonances is a good plan.
This will shorten the LP, which in turn will increase the amp's dynamic headroom and/or lower system distortion depending on how you choose to view it. A big plus when BB is plunking out some serious mid-bass/lower mids.
FWIW, I 'practice what I preach', ~2/3 of my rear wall is a ~ floor/ceiling high bookcase with the entrance way dividing it and the LP and the rest being a large, ceiling high doorway. I use mid/HF horns, corner loading and dense area rug to keep early reflections from occurring in front of the LP, but side wall damping panels and/or over toeing the speakers will work well also (aiming the left channel at the right LP and vice versa).
BLH wise, one with horn loading down to ~75 Hz like the '50s era small corner horns did should work well.
Speakers in bookcases are for low SPL/phone BW limited Muzak style systems, but if you must do it this way, then something along the lines of head_unit's with a separate sub system seems best overall, though I'd probably make the mains damped dipoles since there's high output impedance amps involved and deal with any other bookcase cavity resonances.
GM
Hmm, the bookcase ideally should be behind the listening position (LP) since you want a diffuse rear wall, so adding decorative pillows and/or 'dust collectors' to break up any cavity resonances is a good plan.
This will shorten the LP, which in turn will increase the amp's dynamic headroom and/or lower system distortion depending on how you choose to view it. A big plus when BB is plunking out some serious mid-bass/lower mids.
FWIW, I 'practice what I preach', ~2/3 of my rear wall is a ~ floor/ceiling high bookcase with the entrance way dividing it and the LP and the rest being a large, ceiling high doorway. I use mid/HF horns, corner loading and dense area rug to keep early reflections from occurring in front of the LP, but side wall damping panels and/or over toeing the speakers will work well also (aiming the left channel at the right LP and vice versa).
BLH wise, one with horn loading down to ~75 Hz like the '50s era small corner horns did should work well.
Speakers in bookcases are for low SPL/phone BW limited Muzak style systems, but if you must do it this way, then something along the lines of head_unit's with a separate sub system seems best overall, though I'd probably make the mains damped dipoles since there's high output impedance amps involved and deal with any other bookcase cavity resonances.
GM
A center channel, like silicone glue, can fix a lot of problems. As Toole emphasizes, ping-pong stereo is really an over-rated feature - better to worry about good broad sound with pinpoint stereopsis an added treat.
In this thread (and among wannabe techs in general), people have trouble distinguishing important effects (and focussing on these) from secondary considerations (like diffraction from shelves) and ignoring these.
In this thread (and among wannabe techs in general), people have trouble distinguishing important effects (and focussing on these) from secondary considerations (like diffraction from shelves) and ignoring these.
Well, many 'wannabe' or pro's experiences have found CCs to be a 'mixed bag' that ruin good stereo recordings and at best, blurs poor ones, so CC speakers seem best limited to recordings with a separate CC just as the pioneers of audio dictated. Considering how poorly many stereo recordings are done today due to ipods/whatever, HT multi-channel recordings finally seems to be HIFI's future as it was meant to be. That, or revert to mono, which for older folk's with somewhat impaired hearing, but not enough to need hearing aids, may be the only viable option.
GM
GM
"in a world where compromises don't exist, and an audio system can be designed to conveniently defy the laws of physics and 3 dimensional space, a listener can really have it all" (think cheesy movie trailer voice over)
In the real world, however when you need to be able to use the room for purposes other than dedicating to a large pair of walk-in headphones...😀
The available amplifier power certainly adds an interesting twist to the already complicated chore of trying to fit enclosures within the room constraints.
It's hard to conclude from the photo if the shelves are adjustable or fixed. If the former, can you afford to sacrifice one per side to accommodate a pair of taller aspect ratio enclosures?
I'd consider something with the sensitivity of FE126En or FE166En in a small front mouth BLH, or even simple vented box, with a separate powered woofer XO'd somewhere between 80-120 ( a single sealed box with 8-10" driver would likely be adequate).
The 3 piece "sat/sub" format has earned some disrespect over the years (deserved so based on many commercial versions I've heard), but well implemented is a viable solution to space restrictions.
Ben: as a card carrying canuk, you should remember that to paraphrase Steve Smith - it's Duct Tape that can fix just about anything
In the real world, however when you need to be able to use the room for purposes other than dedicating to a large pair of walk-in headphones...😀
The available amplifier power certainly adds an interesting twist to the already complicated chore of trying to fit enclosures within the room constraints.
It's hard to conclude from the photo if the shelves are adjustable or fixed. If the former, can you afford to sacrifice one per side to accommodate a pair of taller aspect ratio enclosures?
I'd consider something with the sensitivity of FE126En or FE166En in a small front mouth BLH, or even simple vented box, with a separate powered woofer XO'd somewhere between 80-120 ( a single sealed box with 8-10" driver would likely be adequate).
The 3 piece "sat/sub" format has earned some disrespect over the years (deserved so based on many commercial versions I've heard), but well implemented is a viable solution to space restrictions.
Ben: as a card carrying canuk, you should remember that to paraphrase Steve Smith - it's Duct Tape that can fix just about anything
Last edited:
It came as something of a surprise to me in reading Toole's book, in the large collection of cc research he looks at it, center channels seem to make things better, including stereo accuracy.
To be sure, lots of ways to make sound awful. I certainly have my doubts about the garbage center speakers sometime sold to accommodate the big screens for HT. (I use a pair of flanking good speakers for my center channel... which I guess makes it a virtual center channel, half-way there.)
Being relaxed about ping-pong stereo effects, appreciating the cc benefits, and being favorable to ambiance, as Toole is (and I am), all works together.
Your experience may be different.
chrisb... right, duck (or duct) tape.
Ben, for me the most salient take-aways from Floyd's book which I read as mostly oriented to "theatre" (as in music in supporting, not primary role)
- below the transition point the room is in control; if you can take the time to investigate, it'll tell you how many and where the LF drivers should be located, and it might not be intuitive
-the engineering of the audio track recording and will very much affect the efficacy of the particular multi-channel signal processing algorithms used, and as they have continually "evolved" to today's levels, it becomes ever more complicated to fit the requisite number of speakers into the "correct" locations a real world livable room emphasis mine
My HT system is currently at 3.1 level ( well, 2 corner located "subs" XO at 80Hz), and while modest, I'd not consider any of the speakers "garbage" (Mark Audio Alpair 7). Even with the audio settings as calibrated by the receiver's Audyssey software, it's amazing how variably intelligible the CC can be on different program material - in some scenes the dialog track fades completely into the background when characters are in close up. If there's time to switch audio to "normal stereo" the dimensional effects of course collapse, but things usually pop back into perspective with the visual clues. The presence of the CC doesn't guarantee anything, other than one more channel for sloppy production values or inappropriate post processing to mess up.
Of course when done right, it certainly enhances the experience, but except for a few made for broadcast 5.1 HD TV music concerts, (on the which the audio can be quite awfully mixed, and the video is often edited so quickly as to give me vertigo) I've not yet had the opportunity to hear any recent multi-channel music recordings.
FWIW, while briefly playing with locating best compromised locations for rear/surrounds, I noted that some of the most startlingly "real" dimensional effects were on commercials
Really, don't worry too much about putting speakers in the bookshelves. Yes, if you want the Nth degree of perfection, then put towers out in front. But I've had a number of in-bookshelf situations that sounded fine. It's all about
- Getting the front baffle out in front of the bookcases a bit
- Some absorptive material around the tweeter
- Not worrying about it too much!
There are SO many bigger problems, like crossovers, to worry about. A bookshelf a few inches behind the speakers? Really, it will still be very enjoyable.
As for designs, of course nobody has made a design -you'll have to do it (wah ha ha, cue evil laughter). Just design cabinets to slide in and occupy a whole shelf. Should be a lot of cubic volume (maybe enough to avoid subs, depending on your personal need for feeling pounded). Or, if you're worried about toe-in/treble, make a slanted front baffle or a narrow speaker as tall as the bookshelf. Or just use a tweeter with good dispersion!
The sub...yes, higher crossovers if the sub is up near the satellites. 200 Hz sounds high to me. More important is separately adjustable highpass and lowpass crossovers for tunability. With the room you have, I see no reason to make the satellites very tiny. I have to disagree that small satellites make the treble better. Maybe maybe maybe a small woofer can result in better upper midrange, but plenty of big speakers have very nice treble; that is a function of the tweeter. Plus, even if you don't cross them real low, you want low frequency extension to enable a better blend to the subs.
- Getting the front baffle out in front of the bookcases a bit
- Some absorptive material around the tweeter
- Not worrying about it too much!
There are SO many bigger problems, like crossovers, to worry about. A bookshelf a few inches behind the speakers? Really, it will still be very enjoyable.
As for designs, of course nobody has made a design -you'll have to do it (wah ha ha, cue evil laughter). Just design cabinets to slide in and occupy a whole shelf. Should be a lot of cubic volume (maybe enough to avoid subs, depending on your personal need for feeling pounded). Or, if you're worried about toe-in/treble, make a slanted front baffle or a narrow speaker as tall as the bookshelf. Or just use a tweeter with good dispersion!
The sub...yes, higher crossovers if the sub is up near the satellites. 200 Hz sounds high to me. More important is separately adjustable highpass and lowpass crossovers for tunability. With the room you have, I see no reason to make the satellites very tiny. I have to disagree that small satellites make the treble better. Maybe maybe maybe a small woofer can result in better upper midrange, but plenty of big speakers have very nice treble; that is a function of the tweeter. Plus, even if you don't cross them real low, you want low frequency extension to enable a better blend to the subs.
Your going to want to minimize diffraction and reduce any midbass moded created from placing a box speaker into one of those cavities as it is now.
I would suggest a fullrange option with a 'built in ' baffle using the shelf space as the enclosure. Line the walls with a good damping material and secure the baffles, minimizing diffraction and reducing the need for BSC work. Paired with a single,centrally located sub and crossed 80-100hz, a high efficiency 4-6" driver would probobly do really well fullrange. I run a pair of Tang Band 5" fullrangers this way and man can they sing. Once you get the low end redirected to a sub, it's scary how loud a good small full rnage driver can get.
I would suggest a fullrange option with a 'built in ' baffle using the shelf space as the enclosure. Line the walls with a good damping material and secure the baffles, minimizing diffraction and reducing the need for BSC work. Paired with a single,centrally located sub and crossed 80-100hz, a high efficiency 4-6" driver would probobly do really well fullrange. I run a pair of Tang Band 5" fullrangers this way and man can they sing. Once you get the low end redirected to a sub, it's scary how loud a good small full rnage driver can get.
I think the room is too small for OB (too bad 🙁 ) but with
some active bass you can get some good results with
high efficiency full range drivers in sealed boxes occupying
the volume of the shelf space your speakers are sitting on.
Given the 3W SET, I would go to Lowther PM6's and be
prepare to do a little passive Eq on the mid/top.
😎
I'm just sayin'......
some active bass you can get some good results with
high efficiency full range drivers in sealed boxes occupying
the volume of the shelf space your speakers are sitting on.
Given the 3W SET, I would go to Lowther PM6's and be
prepare to do a little passive Eq on the mid/top.
😎
I'm just sayin'......
- Status
- Not open for further replies.