Hi jdrouin. I built the FHXLs with Alpair 10M Gen 3 drivers for someone else and had the opportunity to test them in my own small house for a while. I fell in love with these Alpair drivers the first time a heard them. The Frugal Horns are really amazing designs and the FHXLs with 10Ms sounds really amazing, with incredible bass capability for such a size driver. However, as much as I loved them, the footprints of the FHXLs are much too big for my setup and I suspect they will be too large for your room too.
Have a look at this MLTL (which should give you satisfactory bass too). This design (similar to the Pensils) has a very nice form factor but smaller footprint:
Mark Audio Alpair 10.3/A10p MLTL
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Looking at the photo in the first post I like the aesthetic of a stand mount speaker. Recently I made up a pair of bass reflex boxes for the metal version, A10.3. I haven't had time to properly assess these but was very surprised at how large these speakers sound. In a room of the size shown in the photo I'd almost hazard that they are more than enough. I don't see why a similar approach would not be satisfying with the A10p. A 'restricted port' version of this with an alignment from Dave would also be a safe choice.
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Thanks Dave, twocents, and Bigun. Footprint is not much of an issue because, despite the width limit, there's plenty of room lengthwise to pull speakers away (even far away) from the back wall, put them in corners... or wherever. I was more concerned about room gain causing an excessive bass response from bass-oriented enclosures like FHXL or Silbury. But I'm untrained in room acoustics, so perhaps I ought to learn how to calculate this stuff.
What I'm after is the ultimate finesse but with a good low frequency extension so that I can really hear into the music and the space of the studio/performance room in the recording.
What I'm after is the ultimate finesse but with a good low frequency extension so that I can really hear into the music and the space of the studio/performance room in the recording.
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You hit the nail right on the head with placement, and I think you’ll find that bringing a stand mount or tower speaker out from the wall 4 feet or so is going to make a tremendous difference is imaging. I would strongly suggest you take advantage of the space behind and at the far end with some diffusion.....a few taller house plants and some wood blinds for that window behind......the difference will be shocking.
Now........it’s been my experience being in the DIY and professional sound world for over 30 years that it becomes a question of “could” vs “should”. There’s the need to create something vs the need to enjoy.....either the music or the satisfaction in your creation. I can 100% say with confidence that for in the smallish bookshelf and stand mounted world, the right choice of a commercial speaker is going to rival or surpass your best DIY effort, all things being equal. I now ONLY DIY when there is no commercial alternative for the application.......specialized soundbars, large multi ways, arrays, or sub compact desktop monitors....a category where fullrange drivers excel.
So my first choice, unpopular as it would be here on this forum would be a pair of KEF LS50 and room correction software with DSP and a mic.....something like this IK Multimedia - ARC System 2.5.
Good luck with your journey.....and ask yourself what’s best for your purpose built listening space.....” could I or should I?”
Thanks. Yes, a couple months ago I used the placement calculator at Cardas to find the golden ratio points in the room, which is something like 3.6 feet from the front wall, and placed the CGR and trapezoidal mFonken for 103Sol there. There's tape on the floor to mark the spots. I also marked the golden ratio listening position relative to those points, which is a bit too close. Anyway, the imaging and clarity were the best there, for sure, perhaps owing to the lack of perceptible wall reflections, though the bass dropped off a bit. Currently I've got the trapezoids at the Golden ratio width but with the cone faces about 25 inches or so from the front wall, which is a good compromise.
Thanks for the suggestions on room treatment. That's definitely a next step.
I've been thinking about that A LOT recently, and suspect it's a conundrum that most of us DIYers deal with at some point. For almost four years I've been into DIY audio, making single-ended tube amps and speaker enclosures. It scratches a creative itch in ways I never thought possible, while also allowing a different venue for my cerebral obsessiveness (occupational hazard). And it's reached a point where it's almost spiritual, a kind of alchemy that channels the elements of heat and metal to allow electrons to summon voices from the past, and shapes living material to release them from the genie bottle.
What's weird is that the more satisfied I am with each new build, the more I want to try something else, which is great but which also takes time away from listening to music. I mean the CGRs and traps for 103Sol are *superb*; each time I listen to them I'm bewitched all over again, yet I'm inclined to try more.
Part of what's driving the shift to yet another build, though, is the practical consideration that a friend has asked me to make him something, which means that the amount of wood I'll have to purchase will be enough to make two builds. So I'm like, 'Hmmm, what can I do with the remainder?' Ordinarily I'd just wait a few months and build when I feel like it, but I'm borrowing a really nice table saw that I'll have to return in a couple weeks, so I need to make hay while the sun shines.
Ha! Those speakers were suggested to me in what I think was the very first thread I ever started on this site. I'll definitely have to try them at some point.
Anyway, David, thank you for the advice on stuffing. I sent you an email about the A10P Mar-Ken plan set.
But things are never equal. A commercial speaker will be many times as expensive, and often the compromises in a commercial loudspeaker do not suit the users needs (ie where are all the commercail boxes w FR drivers).
Certainly if one follows Geddes or Tool, and want true FR, a smallish standmount good to an 80Hz XO and mutiple (sub)woofers to do the haevy lifting and deal with room modes.
There is also a lot to be said about playin gwith things and getting your own real-world experience.
dave
A Simon Fraser gradulate wrote his thesis on diffusors and this site excercises his findings to allow for relatively easy, and pretty, diffusors. I imagine a full height western red cedar ones covering the entire wall behind my hifi.
Look good, sound good, and smell good :^)
Arqen: Acoustic Design, Recording Studio Acoustics
dave
Thanks. And thanks for the (massive) Mar-Ken planset. I've been poring over it with great interest.
I thought I'd ask these questions publicly, since there might be broader interest among members:
Which of the single-driver enclosures for A10P in the planset would garner the best performance?
Within the range of trapezoidal enclosures, would any of them have more bass extension than the others? And if so, would that entail a trade-off with finesse?
I guess, more open-endedly, what are the sonic reasons for designing the various wider, taller trapezoids?
I thought I'd ask these questions publicly, since there might be broader interest among members:
Which of the single-driver enclosures for A10P in the planset would garner the best performance?
Within the range of trapezoidal enclosures, would any of them have more bass extension than the others? And if so, would that entail a trade-off with finesse?
I guess, more open-endedly, what are the sonic reasons for designing the various wider, taller trapezoids?
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One of the larger trapezoids. There are medium, wide, & extraWide variations. As they get wider they get shorter. I expect the middle one will be best overall. Bass performance will be largely the same.
dave
All of the 17 litre boxes should have TT (Tall Trapezoid) at the end. 10p for the driver, so, without looking it should be Mar-Ken10pwTT. The skinny one will be 10pTT, and the wide one, xwTT — its purpose is to match the footprint of the Mar-Ken12pwxwT (but even i got lost — largely due to inconsistencies when i derive name).
dave
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If you can’t make the trapezoids there are rectangular ones, Classic Golden Ratio, and the Compact FloorStander — all easier builds.
Yes the traps are not an easy build, but they bring a subtle reduction in diffraction signature (cross-section is roughly a teardrop shape), and they look cool.
dave
Yes the traps are not an easy build, but they bring a subtle reduction in diffraction signature (cross-section is roughly a teardrop shape), and they look cool.
dave
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Traps are indeed more challenging to build than rectangular enclosures. For mFonken103SolT, I went slowly, taking the time to think through each cutting or gluing step, using overhang and other features of the work pieces to pit forces against each other and keep things in alignment, and it turned out just fine. TOTALLY worth the effort. If I can do it, so can you!
Gotcha. That would be easier to build than Mar-Ken10PTT, given the height, plus I wouldn't have to by 3' bar clamps. Going to price wood today.
The A10Ps arrived yesterday. I'm surprised by how light they are, given the apparent heft of the bezels vs. those of the smaller Fostex. The A10P frames look a bit like Lowthers.
Someone has asked me to build a pair of Martin King MLTLs for his DX4's. I've got the drivers sitting in my home office and they are HEAVY.
Gotcha. That would be easier to build than Mar-Ken10PTT, given the height, plus I wouldn't have to by 3' bar clamps. Going to price wood today.
The A10Ps arrived yesterday. I'm surprised by how light they are, given the apparent heft of the bezels vs. those of the smaller Fostex. The A10P frames look a bit like Lowthers.
Someone has asked me to build a pair of Martin King MLTLs for his DX4's. I've got the drivers sitting in my home office and they are HEAVY.
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I've driven my Alpair 10M gen3 (89dB efficient) in a simple ported box of a EL84 SE of 2.5 watt and it went loud enough for my room (8x4x2.5m) for general listening. Now that speaker is in waw setup with a scanspeak subwoofer and powered with a 32w push pull amp and it's never above halve open in the same space. Most of the time, even with the sub, i'm below 6v (under 5w in 8R) output on the amp, and it's already very loud...
So an 8w SE tube amp should be enough to drive that one. You won't be able to give parties with it, but for normal listening, it can still be very loud.
So an 8w SE tube amp should be enough to drive that one. You won't be able to give parties with it, but for normal listening, it can still be very loud.
Sounds good, waxx. I've been using a pair of 89dB Fostex FE103Sol in various enclosures, first with a triode-wired SE 7C5 (loctal 6V6GT) amp (1.5 watts) and now with my variation of a SE 1626 "Darling" amp (0.75 watt, though probably closer to 0.6 watt at my operating point). Both of these are powerful enough to drive the 89dB Sols to levels that are too loud for me, and they sound fantastic.
The 1626 is the most recent amp that I bothered to finish in a chassis, about three weeks ago. It has Raphaelite 8 ohm/32 ohm output transformers, and a 3 pole double throw switch in each channel to toggle between speaker and headphone (32 ohm Beyerdynamic DT880) without having to unplug/plug things at the back. Been listening to it all day while working this week.
Really looking forward to how the A10P sounds with these.
The 1626 is the most recent amp that I bothered to finish in a chassis, about three weeks ago. It has Raphaelite 8 ohm/32 ohm output transformers, and a 3 pole double throw switch in each channel to toggle between speaker and headphone (32 ohm Beyerdynamic DT880) without having to unplug/plug things at the back. Been listening to it all day while working this week.
Really looking forward to how the A10P sounds with these.
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