The little experience I have using the DDRs with a ported 10" sub for music was not entirely satisfactory. It added some boom without adding much actual bass. Now that may just be the nature of my room, but it's also probably the nature of the interaction of my room with a ported sub. An OB sub I would expect to behave somewhat better, but I have to wonder whether it's both necessary for music, and sufficient for everything else.
In a few days, I'll try the DDRs in my HTS, bi-amped with a new Denon AVR-4806ci, and my little Polk sub will be back in the picture, so I may have more to say later.
I did get to wondering whether the bass I was hearing from the DDRs was as good as I was thinking, so after I finished mod'ing a pair of UCDs to use off-board +-12, I put on Marcus Miller's M2, just to see. Now, I play a little bass (J-Retro mod'ed, Fender-Japan fretless JB), so I have some idea what it s'posed to sound like, and...
Yup, it did. 😀 The DDRs are maybe a little light for a big upright, but for most everything else, they hit hard. Gotta be pretty decent down to at least 60 Hz, in room, to sound as real as they do, too, so it's going to take a mother of a sub to make much useful difference, like that 15" Tempest Tim mentioned. I doubt there are many (any?) passive, OB 2-ways with this sort of usable bass extension.
BTW, ofboard supplies ought to be mandatory for the UCDs. Background went from dark to pitch black, and even old electronica sounds smooth and musical (Mars Lasars' 11:02 and JM Jarre's Images sounded better than I'd ever heard them, and Dream Palace's Troika II was just magical). I still prefer the SKA, but at this point I could live with the UCDs.
In a few days, I'll try the DDRs in my HTS, bi-amped with a new Denon AVR-4806ci, and my little Polk sub will be back in the picture, so I may have more to say later.
I did get to wondering whether the bass I was hearing from the DDRs was as good as I was thinking, so after I finished mod'ing a pair of UCDs to use off-board +-12, I put on Marcus Miller's M2, just to see. Now, I play a little bass (J-Retro mod'ed, Fender-Japan fretless JB), so I have some idea what it s'posed to sound like, and...
Yup, it did. 😀 The DDRs are maybe a little light for a big upright, but for most everything else, they hit hard. Gotta be pretty decent down to at least 60 Hz, in room, to sound as real as they do, too, so it's going to take a mother of a sub to make much useful difference, like that 15" Tempest Tim mentioned. I doubt there are many (any?) passive, OB 2-ways with this sort of usable bass extension.
BTW, ofboard supplies ought to be mandatory for the UCDs. Background went from dark to pitch black, and even old electronica sounds smooth and musical (Mars Lasars' 11:02 and JM Jarre's Images sounded better than I'd ever heard them, and Dream Palace's Troika II was just magical). I still prefer the SKA, but at this point I could live with the UCDs.
I have the potential of bringing in a behringer to make this OB active. Would that ease my integration of the necessarily large 15" sub? I hate to mess with something that obviously has yielded some great results so far.
Ark
Ark
I assume the Behringer has crossover and EQ capabilities? If so, it would work fine. You'll want to XO around 80 Hz with at least a 2nd order (4th would be better) crossover, and then use the EQ to compensate for the dipole woofer roll-off, down to the point where the woofer overloads. The cut everything below that.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
I finally got around to assembling the DDRs and they perform as advertised. They are as yet unfinished so it's not worth any pictures.
My little EL34 tube amp was not up to the 4 ohm 80db/w load so I switched over to a 85w/ch solid state which does a respectable job. I've always believed that open baffle speakers offer what standard enclosures cannot but the huge baffles have always put me off. The dual Extremis/BG combo does an excellent job of providing dynamics and detail without the "box" sound or huge baffle.
For most music I find the bass adequate but there are times I need more.
For me, this provides the starting point of creating a truly exceptional speaker system. It may take some time but I would like to add the dipole woofers and go fully active. I believe when this is finished I will have a system that will keep me satisfied for many years.
My little EL34 tube amp was not up to the 4 ohm 80db/w load so I switched over to a 85w/ch solid state which does a respectable job. I've always believed that open baffle speakers offer what standard enclosures cannot but the huge baffles have always put me off. The dual Extremis/BG combo does an excellent job of providing dynamics and detail without the "box" sound or huge baffle.
For most music I find the bass adequate but there are times I need more.
For me, this provides the starting point of creating a truly exceptional speaker system. It may take some time but I would like to add the dipole woofers and go fully active. I believe when this is finished I will have a system that will keep me satisfied for many years.
Silly me, making assumptions. I looked at Dan's impedance graph and see now I should have been using the 8 ohm taps rather than the 4 ohm taps. I still doubt my tube amp has enough umph to push these when I want it loud. The time for a nice 6 channel amp is getting closer.
Yeah, I wouldn't wanna ask anything tube besides a large scale push pull to do these. Consequences of low efficiency drivers compounded with a dipole.
Timn8ter,
If your Extremii are new, I think you may be surprised at how much better they'll sound after they've broken in a bit, especially WRT bass extension. Mine have 80+ hours and continue to improve. They do want power, and won't really open up without, if you're wanting the best dynamics. I'm finding a pair of UCD180ADs just adequate, and am planning for a pair of GB300D modules instead. Listening to Marcus Miller's Silver Rain tonight, I found the bass delivery quite effective, tight, punchy and 'fast'; I could feel it in my chest.
I've got my DDRs integrated into my HTS as the fronts, driven from the pre-outs of a Denon 4906ci via the Hypex modules. The center, surrounds and sub remain Polk, and the DDRs sound good enough in this role that I'm considering a slightly modified DDR panel as a replacement for the center (CSI-5). The clarity of the DDRs is a treat, and the Denon pre, although slightly more polite than my GAS Thoebe, is very good even for plain old stereo.
My wife still has her (2-300+) LP collection intact, and wanted to listen, so I gave her a Music Hall MMF-5 for Christmas. With the DDRs, (and a new pair of home-made DH Labs Silver Sonic interconnects), her vinyl sounds incredible, low-noise, lively and immediate. Her original LPs of Al Dimeola's Casino and Elegant Gypsy were oh-so-much-better than either of us remembered them....
Mission accomplished, once again, and a good time was had by all.
If your Extremii are new, I think you may be surprised at how much better they'll sound after they've broken in a bit, especially WRT bass extension. Mine have 80+ hours and continue to improve. They do want power, and won't really open up without, if you're wanting the best dynamics. I'm finding a pair of UCD180ADs just adequate, and am planning for a pair of GB300D modules instead. Listening to Marcus Miller's Silver Rain tonight, I found the bass delivery quite effective, tight, punchy and 'fast'; I could feel it in my chest.
I've got my DDRs integrated into my HTS as the fronts, driven from the pre-outs of a Denon 4906ci via the Hypex modules. The center, surrounds and sub remain Polk, and the DDRs sound good enough in this role that I'm considering a slightly modified DDR panel as a replacement for the center (CSI-5). The clarity of the DDRs is a treat, and the Denon pre, although slightly more polite than my GAS Thoebe, is very good even for plain old stereo.
My wife still has her (2-300+) LP collection intact, and wanted to listen, so I gave her a Music Hall MMF-5 for Christmas. With the DDRs, (and a new pair of home-made DH Labs Silver Sonic interconnects), her vinyl sounds incredible, low-noise, lively and immediate. Her original LPs of Al Dimeola's Casino and Elegant Gypsy were oh-so-much-better than either of us remembered them....
Mission accomplished, once again, and a good time was had by all.
Tim knows the extremis as well as anyone... it was a pair of his speakers (with twin extremis) that he brought to the VI diyFest one time before last, that convinced me to look at this driver like i would a normal 10". I have a BIG room, and even with just his 35 W PP EL34 the bass was enuff to bring waves of nausea over me as i stood in the kitchen preparing the wings.
dave
dave
The Extremis typically need 40 to 50 hours to get the suspension fully broke-in. The drivers I used were in another pair of speakers so they have plenty of time on them. There are times during certain passages that surprise me with good low end response. I only want for more with certain music passages (pipe organs for example) that contain very low frequencies. Other than that, I'm very pleased with the performance.
As for power, I'm looking to go with UcD180 on the tweeters and UcD400 on the Extremis. That should be enough.
Dave had the "pleasure" of hearing my Ruby towers; a three way with dual Extremis, WR125S mid and now containing Hiquphon Gold tweeters. They produce crazy bass response.
BTW, the Hiquphon tweeters are exquisite.
As for power, I'm looking to go with UcD180 on the tweeters and UcD400 on the Extremis. That should be enough.
Dave had the "pleasure" of hearing my Ruby towers; a three way with dual Extremis, WR125S mid and now containing Hiquphon Gold tweeters. They produce crazy bass response.
BTW, the Hiquphon tweeters are exquisite.
The hiquphons are very nice drivers. But I won't allow you to corrupt me with claims of extremis bass! They're completely too small. One really needs 100ft^3 or more of displacement to do 100Hz with enough slam 😉
Actually, I'm looking at doing something similar to the DDRs, but with a lot more woof- peerless HDS 8"s, probably 4 of them, and a dedicated mid and tweety. Probably will cover the back with acoustic foam, soak up that backwave down into where I need the bass backwave to retain directionality (at which point the foam will be ineffective anyway).
But that's after the preamp..... which is almost ready to have the chassis started....
Actually, I'm looking at doing something similar to the DDRs, but with a lot more woof- peerless HDS 8"s, probably 4 of them, and a dedicated mid and tweety. Probably will cover the back with acoustic foam, soak up that backwave down into where I need the bass backwave to retain directionality (at which point the foam will be ineffective anyway).
But that's after the preamp..... which is almost ready to have the chassis started....
And I'm not going to let myself be drawn into your obsessive search for ear-bleeding SPL 😉
Honestly, I wouldn't mind being able to hit some higher SPL levels with these. I think adding a high pass to the MTM portion and a good bass unit will make a world of difference.
Z33, you didn't mention what frequency you were rolling off to the subwoofer at.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind being able to hit some higher SPL levels with these. I think adding a high pass to the MTM portion and a good bass unit will make a world of difference.
Z33, you didn't mention what frequency you were rolling off to the subwoofer at.
Timn8ter said:
When in use, it comes in at 80 Hz, but I don't normally use it for music other than SACD, simply because it doesn't seem to add much. For flics, it does fine.
The fellow who sold me the MMF-5 allowed me to audition his diy 18" transmission lines, and I now have some idea what a smOOth bottom octave sounds like. He has them actively crossed with little Tannoys, which looked a little incongruous; the TL were only slightly smaller than an olde Voice of the Theater (and weigh more: 300+ lbs). They're something like his 60th pair of TL, and sound it. We spent several hours listening, and I came away with a whole new appreciation for extended, well-integrated bass. I think it may be difficult to get such polished goodness on an OB, esp. crossing much higher than ~80Hz, which we'd like to do to relieve the Extremii.
My little sub doesn't qualify particularly well on either count, but since the Extremii manage well in-room down to 60Hz or below, I'm not too put out. If I ever come across an old LP of Wakeman's Six Wives, I may regret not reaching for the south 40, but probably not before.
BTW, did you build Dan's optional Zoebel? I'm about to do, just to see what effect it might have with my amp(s).
Timn8ter said:
A memorable experience for all, Tim: ka-razee is certainly an apt description.
but then again, that's coming from a fullrange guy who considers the FE166 as a "big" driver
Cal Weldon said:
Hm. Dunno that I'd go there. I use 15"s in my bedroom rig..... the 'little' rig.....
Timn8ter said:
I added the Zobel nets this evening, which sweetened the mids perceptibly, at least whilst using the Hypex amps. The Ball amps seem happily oblivious. I used the same Jantzen, Mills and Solen parts I used for the rest of the XO, forgetting, in my haste to avoid electrolytics, just how Big a 100 uF polyprop can be. I had the XO covers made up last Thursday; I think it'll all still fit... The longer bolts I need for the Cardas binding posts will be here Monday, so I'll post another pic or so this week of how that all worked out.
I think that about puts paid to this pair, unless I start messing with subs. Maybe we should be thinking along the lines of the Jamo R909:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jamo/909.html
Somehow I missed the start of this thread. Been too busy at my new job.
I've had OB speakers for the past 7 years. Initially, this was BG 520s with dipole operation from 300hz up. Great sounding speakers in dipole mode but poor integration with the sealed woofers led to sale after a couple of years.
I then built a DIY ribbon dipole using an array of BG Neo 8 PDRs. The bass was also dipole using the PE IB15. I posted some pictures and performance measurements on this forum. Poor SAF of the cabinets precluded any permanent deployment in my family room.
About 6 months ago, I saw a pair of Audio Artistry Vivaldi for sale on Audiogon and snapped them up. The Vivaldi is Siefried Linkwitz's full range passive dipole design, which he told me he to be his most challenging commercial design accomplishment. Siegfried published the essential characteristics of the Vivaldi passive design on his Web site in the section titled "Phoenix Prototypes". A few people have build these with good results
The Vivaldi is a 3 way design, somewhat more complex than the DDR. I would second everything that z33 has said about the fantistic performance of full range dipoles. The Vivaldis are flat down to about 40hz, an incredible accomplishment for a passive dipole design. Having heard the Orion at Siefried's house, the Orion drivers may be somewhat better and likewise the active crossover, but I think I am about 90% there with the Vivaldis.
I would add that Danny at GR Research has designed a full range dipole speaker for AV123, which was announced recently on the forum at the AV123 web site. This should be a killer system at the target price of $1699. It's not known yet if Danny plans to make a DIY version available.
I've had OB speakers for the past 7 years. Initially, this was BG 520s with dipole operation from 300hz up. Great sounding speakers in dipole mode but poor integration with the sealed woofers led to sale after a couple of years.
I then built a DIY ribbon dipole using an array of BG Neo 8 PDRs. The bass was also dipole using the PE IB15. I posted some pictures and performance measurements on this forum. Poor SAF of the cabinets precluded any permanent deployment in my family room.
About 6 months ago, I saw a pair of Audio Artistry Vivaldi for sale on Audiogon and snapped them up. The Vivaldi is Siefried Linkwitz's full range passive dipole design, which he told me he to be his most challenging commercial design accomplishment. Siegfried published the essential characteristics of the Vivaldi passive design on his Web site in the section titled "Phoenix Prototypes". A few people have build these with good results
The Vivaldi is a 3 way design, somewhat more complex than the DDR. I would second everything that z33 has said about the fantistic performance of full range dipoles. The Vivaldis are flat down to about 40hz, an incredible accomplishment for a passive dipole design. Having heard the Orion at Siefried's house, the Orion drivers may be somewhat better and likewise the active crossover, but I think I am about 90% there with the Vivaldis.
I would add that Danny at GR Research has designed a full range dipole speaker for AV123, which was announced recently on the forum at the AV123 web site. This should be a killer system at the target price of $1699. It's not known yet if Danny plans to make a DIY version available.
I assembled a pair of DDR's a couple weeks ago. These are the first Dipole speakers I've ever heard -- WOW!
I like the open sound of them in my room. The Extremii have been well broken in from Exodus Audio 2641 & LCR use. I don't
know for sure but I think the NEO3PDR's are louder now than at first -- which is fine. I'm thinking about using the DDR's all around for 5.1 sound.
I'm using an Adire 12 inch Shiva 88.5 Liter sealed sub with them and it seems to integrate well -- small room.
?????'s:
I ordered from Parts Express and had to make these Substitutions:
1.2 Ohm in series with 5.6 Ohm for the 6.8 Ohm Resistor ((1.2 + 5.6) vs 6.8)
0.25mH 18 GA for the .24mH 20 GA Air Core Inductor (0.25mH vs 0.24mH & 18 GA vs 20 GA)
0.47mH 18 GA for the .47mH 20 GA Air Core Inductor (18 GA vs 20 GA)
ERSE Super Q 2.5 mH 16 GA 500W For the 2.5 mH 15 GA Steel Laminate Inductor (16 GA vs 15 GA)
ERSE Super Q 9.0 mH 16 GA 500W For the 9.0 mH 15 GA Steel Laminate Inductor (16 GA vs 15 GA)
Do those Substitutions change the XO's enough to be concerned about?
What is Dan's optional Zoebel?
Does anyone have a good idea for a DDR center channel for under TV use?
I'm thinking horzontal box with open sides and back and a 24" wide by 9" high baffle, using the same driver layout.
Thanks
I like the open sound of them in my room. The Extremii have been well broken in from Exodus Audio 2641 & LCR use. I don't
know for sure but I think the NEO3PDR's are louder now than at first -- which is fine. I'm thinking about using the DDR's all around for 5.1 sound.
I'm using an Adire 12 inch Shiva 88.5 Liter sealed sub with them and it seems to integrate well -- small room.
?????'s:
I ordered from Parts Express and had to make these Substitutions:
1.2 Ohm in series with 5.6 Ohm for the 6.8 Ohm Resistor ((1.2 + 5.6) vs 6.8)
0.25mH 18 GA for the .24mH 20 GA Air Core Inductor (0.25mH vs 0.24mH & 18 GA vs 20 GA)
0.47mH 18 GA for the .47mH 20 GA Air Core Inductor (18 GA vs 20 GA)
ERSE Super Q 2.5 mH 16 GA 500W For the 2.5 mH 15 GA Steel Laminate Inductor (16 GA vs 15 GA)
ERSE Super Q 9.0 mH 16 GA 500W For the 9.0 mH 15 GA Steel Laminate Inductor (16 GA vs 15 GA)
Do those Substitutions change the XO's enough to be concerned about?
What is Dan's optional Zoebel?
Does anyone have a good idea for a DDR center channel for under TV use?
I'm thinking horzontal box with open sides and back and a 24" wide by 9" high baffle, using the same driver layout.
Thanks
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