I did a bunch of experiments with crossfeed headphone stereo perception, using Chord Hugo crossfeed function, foobar2000 Meier crossfeed plug-in, and more recently a classic crossfeed circuit (Linkwitz-Chu Moy). I was able to achieve stereo sound, depth perception with singer/musicians/stage in front of me, albeit smaller and nearer than the presentation through stereo loudspeakers. The music separates/delineates more easily and sounds more natural. This effect requires:
(1) twisting the headphone pads "OPEN-WING" so sound comes from FRONT-LEFT/RIGHT (and very slightly above if possible), not shooting straight into ear canal; headphones with 2-degrees-of-freedom work best
(2) EQ DOWN both trebble and bass for a realistic sense of distance, but compensate for bass-loss due to pads not being sealed (try hand-cupping ears or draping flaps over the gap as in picture)
(3) time-delayed crossfeed to opposite channel (I conjecture that additional lower bass delay would be better)
Headphone Stereo Test Prep Music uploaded to China's bilibili (click triangle to play)
LISTEN WITH HEADPHONES "OPEN-WING" foobar2000 Meier Crossfeed set to max, EQ'ed https://www.bilibili.com/audio/am33118121?type=7
original/control for comparison purpose only https://www.bilibili.com/audio/am33116224?type=7
I hope there is interest in this topic. I have found a few circuit diagrams. Crossfeed miniDSP anyone?
(1) twisting the headphone pads "OPEN-WING" so sound comes from FRONT-LEFT/RIGHT (and very slightly above if possible), not shooting straight into ear canal; headphones with 2-degrees-of-freedom work best
(2) EQ DOWN both trebble and bass for a realistic sense of distance, but compensate for bass-loss due to pads not being sealed (try hand-cupping ears or draping flaps over the gap as in picture)
(3) time-delayed crossfeed to opposite channel (I conjecture that additional lower bass delay would be better)
Headphone Stereo Test Prep Music uploaded to China's bilibili (click triangle to play)
LISTEN WITH HEADPHONES "OPEN-WING" foobar2000 Meier Crossfeed set to max, EQ'ed https://www.bilibili.com/audio/am33118121?type=7
original/control for comparison purpose only https://www.bilibili.com/audio/am33116224?type=7
I hope there is interest in this topic. I have found a few circuit diagrams. Crossfeed miniDSP anyone?
Attachments
Last edited:
p.s. just followed-up a 10-day-old thread over in the Lounge https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/r-i-p-onkyo.386245/page-8#post-7158425
(copy)
Since the ear external parts (flange, concha, meatus whatever) all play critical roles in hearing, and a person's brain compensates for the individual's own (sometimes quite distinctive) physical differences, a binaural recording that enters the ear canal straight-on can only be an approximation. Anyway, when I was a student I watched Blue Max late one night and the plane realistically circled overhead -- I wore headphones and the soundtrack was binaually recorded! Reproducing music soundstage in binaural stereo, I haven't had a chance to try.
---
Stereo sound is also about depth/distance and height (3D), not just L/R. If you place speakers to point axially at your two ears but enter at an angle, then adjust your position front/back slowly, you will likely hit that sweet spot where stereo soundstage with depth comes into focus. You'd know how far away a musician stands or sits not just horizontal direction. Headphones don't present depth (unless binaurally recorded to simulate head/ears), so the musicians form a line that goes through the head.
When Apple announced the "new" airpod last year, I got all excited because it claimed to present the sound as if coming from the screen in front of you. I never bought one because Apple stopped mentioning the feature.
(copy)
Since the ear external parts (flange, concha, meatus whatever) all play critical roles in hearing, and a person's brain compensates for the individual's own (sometimes quite distinctive) physical differences, a binaural recording that enters the ear canal straight-on can only be an approximation. Anyway, when I was a student I watched Blue Max late one night and the plane realistically circled overhead -- I wore headphones and the soundtrack was binaually recorded! Reproducing music soundstage in binaural stereo, I haven't had a chance to try.
---
Stereo sound is also about depth/distance and height (3D), not just L/R. If you place speakers to point axially at your two ears but enter at an angle, then adjust your position front/back slowly, you will likely hit that sweet spot where stereo soundstage with depth comes into focus. You'd know how far away a musician stands or sits not just horizontal direction. Headphones don't present depth (unless binaurally recorded to simulate head/ears), so the musicians form a line that goes through the head.
When Apple announced the "new" airpod last year, I got all excited because it claimed to present the sound as if coming from the screen in front of you. I never bought one because Apple stopped mentioning the feature.
Interesting, what you described reminded me of the following:
After a considerable time struggeling with getting the balance of audio right, see
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vocals-usually-more-on-the-right-side-than-left.590419 and
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/stereo-imaging-vocals-towards-left-side.501948
I discovered the mind seems to change auditory information from the visual information it gets or not gets. Perhaps even just what it expects.
McGurk effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGurk_effect
Franssen effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franssen_effect
Haas effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effect
After a considerable time struggeling with getting the balance of audio right, see
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vocals-usually-more-on-the-right-side-than-left.590419 and
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/stereo-imaging-vocals-towards-left-side.501948
I discovered the mind seems to change auditory information from the visual information it gets or not gets. Perhaps even just what it expects.
McGurk effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGurk_effect
Franssen effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franssen_effect
Haas effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effect
All very interesting, thanks for the links. However, I'd like to add something that may be HIGHLY RELEVANT to diy audio
Everyone please join a fun psychoacoustics experiment.
While listening to music:
o Close both eyes, sound becomes clearer, fuller, more delineated and organic (i.e. "BETTER"), in particular bass sounds louder; YES/NO?
o Open both eyes, instruments (individual or section) are more precisely imaged/located (especially how far from you), compared to eyes-closed; YES/NO?
(Now the fun part)
o Close left eye and open right eye, the left half soundstage is more precise, but the right half sounds BETTER; YES/NO? Of course
o Close right eye and open left eye, the right half soundstage is more precise, but the left half sounds BETTER. YES/NO?
Please respond with your results!
Now, if you agree with me (YES/YES/YES/YES), the question is WHY? (My hypothesis/explanation to be posted later.)
As for relevance, any listening test (including by oneself) must ensure the testers are consistent eye-wise. And there's a natural extension to A-B testing, or rather L-R testing!
Last edited:
As for the tests: now I am biased Anyway, I fear my hearing is not good enough to possibly answer YES to all tests. My right ear is a bit worse than the left one.
However, I independently noticed before if I close my eyes, the stereo image unmistakenly slightly shifts back to the right.
I can also confirm the precendence effect: when I start listening on the right, the focus stays on the right.
Anyway, I fear my hearing is not good enough to possibly answer YES to all tests. My right ear is a bit worse than the left one.However, I independently noticed before if I close my eyes, the stereo image unmistakenly slightly shifts back to the right.
I can also confirm the precendence effect: when I start listening on the right, the focus stays on the right.
I have also done a great deal of experimenting over the years. My results run close to yours.
A frequency dependent cross feed and delay do make a positive difference. But personally the image still sticks very close to the headphones unless real room reverb is used. Then the trick does work for me. I use four impulse responses and channel mixing to achieve it.
A frequency dependent cross feed and delay do make a positive difference. But personally the image still sticks very close to the headphones unless real room reverb is used. Then the trick does work for me. I use four impulse responses and channel mixing to achieve it.
Thank you for the reply and sharing of your results!
Please do try "OPEN-WING" to use the full-ear "antennae" for psychoacoustic source location, as sound enters from front/left-right in which directions our hearing is keenest.
My first speaker-diy was a 7L (!) transmission line https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/desktop-transmission-line.391306/page-2#post-7150876 whose 1m length and rear-port/wall-reflection delayed LF output by ~10ms. I had read (D'Appolito THOR review, I believe) 15ms was enough to fool the brain into accepting the LF boost as "music hall ambience" echoes (reverb) i.e. sense of space (and importantly, not "smearing" the direct frontal sound). It turned out that 5-10ms delay was not bad, perhaps a smaller music venue than Carnegie Hall. The 7L TL playing Engleskyts soprano & organ was very realistic reverberating in midair -- I have been to the concert performance, at the Grace Cathedral in San Francisco. (One track of Engleskyts is in the bilibili test suite in post #1.)
If crossfeed had more low bass delay (reverb), I think open-wing headphone stereo sound would plain work. What circuit, analogue or digial processing would make it easy-to-use and effective? Help needed.
I have tried Open-Wing position and like it, but it isn’t practical for private listening. The main reason I wear headphones is to listen without disturbing others.
To somewhat answer your questions above:
Yes richer with eyes closed , yes better depth and space with eyes open and I have not tried one eyed listening.
What is your hypothesis?
To somewhat answer your questions above:
Yes richer with eyes closed , yes better depth and space with eyes open and I have not tried one eyed listening.
What is your hypothesis?
I have thought of a way to add wedge extensions to the headphone pads (split an extra pad obliquely, rotate 180 and re-glue), but looking around I saw a foam disc... so a few minutes ago I just cut it in half and made ear hoods of them. I'm sure with a bit of care they can be made "sealed". Now the phones are much easier to use but the bass boost I had made for unaltered phones has become counterproductive. Regardless, I just sampled the bilibili tracks and definitely prefer the XFEQ ones as much more natural sounding. The difference might be subtle (due partly to self-defeating excess bass) but under direct comparison it is there. Suggested tracks: Enchanted Isles #2; Yale Cellos Bach Air; Engleskyts.
I just acquired an oldie Telefunken TH-60 whose drivers are angled. Listened to my bilibili test tracks (fb2k Meier-crossfeed, EQ), but the bass-boost to compensate for open-wing turned out very counterproductive. I'm going to use attenuator-based loudness/tone-controls (vintage Japanese circuits) instead, since every headphone's different.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/variable-loudness-diy-for-noob.381420/page-2#post-7213204
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/variable-loudness-diy-for-noob.381420/page-2#post-7213204