I know there are some companies that sell hard disc recording systems.
Digital Precision? There is one that is part in Massachusets and part in Menlo Park?
But their stuff does not run on Linux. It is a dedicated real time operating system.
If you want real time recording, or real time play back, it seems that you would need that.
Digital Precision? There is one that is part in Massachusets and part in Menlo Park?
But their stuff does not run on Linux. It is a dedicated real time operating system.
If you want real time recording, or real time play back, it seems that you would need that.
I actually think it is the poorly suited PC operating systems and interfaces, as well as the lack of control in the appliance like digital boxes;
that feeds the vinyl and vacuum tube people.
They want the feel of direct control!!
We should have that!!
Now, if you want a juke box driven by a relational data base, OK.
But the sound that actually gets to the speakers should go through something much more suitable.
YMMV
ZMB
that feeds the vinyl and vacuum tube people.
They want the feel of direct control!!
We should have that!!
Now, if you want a juke box driven by a relational data base, OK.
But the sound that actually gets to the speakers should go through something much more suitable.
YMMV
ZMB
http://www.digidesign.com/
This is the company I was trying to think of the name of, digi design.
As i had understood it, they made PC based hard disk recording systems. They are complex and expensive. I had thought they did not run on Linux or anything else like that, because they needed tighter real time performance.
Has this changed?
I read about JACK, and I understand what they are trying to do. I am skeptical about ever getting ture real time results from something like Linux.
cross posting here. join and jump in.
http://groups.google.com/group/audioex_amps_dght
This is the company I was trying to think of the name of, digi design.
As i had understood it, they made PC based hard disk recording systems. They are complex and expensive. I had thought they did not run on Linux or anything else like that, because they needed tighter real time performance.
Has this changed?
I read about JACK, and I understand what they are trying to do. I am skeptical about ever getting ture real time results from something like Linux.
cross posting here. join and jump in.
http://groups.google.com/group/audioex_amps_dght
http://mixguides.com/consoles/new_products/sony-pro-audio-consoles/
Let me know when they're running a sale on those Sony OXF-R3's.
Truth is, for doing playback with 2ch or 7.1, it shouldn't take much hardware wise.
I like the idea of a TigerShark DSP in a box with just a couple of controls.
Then use that GP2X game controller to have access to all the menus and all.
But again, open source is collaborative. We build on what has already been done. We use existing open source. But we also use the defacto compatibility standards, open source or not.
Appraising the current state of affairs is a daunting task, at least for me.
I'm glad this thread has already yielded so much. But I still think there is much more to explore.
ZMB
Let me know when they're running a sale on those Sony OXF-R3's.
Truth is, for doing playback with 2ch or 7.1, it shouldn't take much hardware wise.
I like the idea of a TigerShark DSP in a box with just a couple of controls.
Then use that GP2X game controller to have access to all the menus and all.
But again, open source is collaborative. We build on what has already been done. We use existing open source. But we also use the defacto compatibility standards, open source or not.
Appraising the current state of affairs is a daunting task, at least for me.
I'm glad this thread has already yielded so much. But I still think there is much more to explore.
ZMB
http://www.sonyoxford.co.uk/pub/plugins-sony/About-History.htm
I don't know what to make of that. Digital is supposed to make stuff simpler. That looks like something for Stategic Air Command.
I don't know what to make of that. Digital is supposed to make stuff simpler. That looks like something for Stategic Air Command.
http://www.sonyoxford.co.uk/pub/plugins-sony/products/eq.htm
Actually, I think a great deal about audio design could be learned by studying how this Sony Oxford system is done.
The above page talks about its parametric eq.
Sounds like it works with digi designs pro tools, and that it can do the 192khz rate. This rate seems extreme to me.
Actually, I think a great deal about audio design could be learned by studying how this Sony Oxford system is done.
The above page talks about its parametric eq.
Sounds like it works with digi designs pro tools, and that it can do the 192khz rate. This rate seems extreme to me.
Attachments
http://www.sonyoxford.co.uk/pub/plugins-sony/products/reverb.htm
Here is the reverb. I quess these Sony plug ins are not the same as VST? But I guess JACK makes everything compatible?
Are the Digi Design plugins the same a sony, or different?
JACK fixes it?
I think studying the architecture of the Sony and Digi Design systems could be very relevant.
Here is the reverb. I quess these Sony plug ins are not the same as VST? But I guess JACK makes everything compatible?
Are the Digi Design plugins the same a sony, or different?
JACK fixes it?
I think studying the architecture of the Sony and Digi Design systems could be very relevant.
Attachments
http://www.sonyoxford.co.uk/pub/plugins-sony/products/dynamics.htm
Here is the dynamics unit.
See, I have always felt that home audio should offer compression and expansion.
Sometimes expansion is fun to play with. Vinyl does not have that much dynamic range.
But some of the new feature films almost need compression if you don't want the loud parts to be real real loud.
See, they have dialogue with regional or street dialects, on top of background noise. I for one need the subtitles on if I am going to understand it without turning it up real loud. Then the loud parts are real real loud.
If they really start to take advantage of the 144dB of 24 bit audio, it will be even more extreme. Actually, they can't go that far.
But so sometimes, you need compression.
All of this adds complexity, parts, circuits, and more knobs to analog audio.
But with digital, you can switch it in or out, its just data. It adds no real complexity.
Problem is that the fixed function appliance approach just gives you a limited set of options.
You should have an open source approach that lets you use all sorts of plug ins.
I want to continue to explore this vein.
Maybe JACK is going to be highly relevant, though I'm still not sold on Linux for strict real time.
Does the Sony Oxford system use anything like Linux? I would be surprised.
ZMB
Here is the dynamics unit.
See, I have always felt that home audio should offer compression and expansion.
Sometimes expansion is fun to play with. Vinyl does not have that much dynamic range.
But some of the new feature films almost need compression if you don't want the loud parts to be real real loud.
See, they have dialogue with regional or street dialects, on top of background noise. I for one need the subtitles on if I am going to understand it without turning it up real loud. Then the loud parts are real real loud.
If they really start to take advantage of the 144dB of 24 bit audio, it will be even more extreme. Actually, they can't go that far.
But so sometimes, you need compression.
All of this adds complexity, parts, circuits, and more knobs to analog audio.
But with digital, you can switch it in or out, its just data. It adds no real complexity.
Problem is that the fixed function appliance approach just gives you a limited set of options.
You should have an open source approach that lets you use all sorts of plug ins.
I want to continue to explore this vein.
Maybe JACK is going to be highly relevant, though I'm still not sold on Linux for strict real time.
Does the Sony Oxford system use anything like Linux? I would be surprised.
ZMB
Attachments
2 System Requirements
Approved Digidesign CPU and hardware configuration
Windows XP or Mac OS 10.2.6 or later
800x600 minimum display
Pro Tools 6.1 or later
ILok USB Smart Key
This is from one of the Sony manuals. Does this really go on Windows XP??
Maybe these sony tools are for mix down, post processing? Maybe not supposed to work real time?
Approved Digidesign CPU and hardware configuration
Windows XP or Mac OS 10.2.6 or later
800x600 minimum display
Pro Tools 6.1 or later
ILok USB Smart Key
This is from one of the Sony manuals. Does this really go on Windows XP??
Maybe these sony tools are for mix down, post processing? Maybe not supposed to work real time?
http://www.sonyoxford.co.uk/ws/pub/plug-shop/shop-1.htm?h-id=tdm
Here is the software plug in price list. These are for Sony Oxford ProTools plug ins.
Here is the software plug in price list. These are for Sony Oxford ProTools plug ins.
This is from the wikipedia citatation for VST. I guess these are the main plug in standards?
Sony is using ProTools from Digi Design, but also Accel?
<<
VST plug-ins are software modules that can take the form of real-time instruments or effects. Competing technologies include LADSPA and DSSI for Linux, Apple Computer's Audio Units, Microsoft's DirectX, Digidesign's AudioSuite, Real Time AudioSuite, and TDM.
>>
Sony is using ProTools from Digi Design, but also Accel?
<<
VST plug-ins are software modules that can take the form of real-time instruments or effects. Competing technologies include LADSPA and DSSI for Linux, Apple Computer's Audio Units, Microsoft's DirectX, Digidesign's AudioSuite, Real Time AudioSuite, and TDM.
>>
Raw tracks. I've always thought that it would be better if they gave you the raw recorded tracks on digital media, along with a mixdown sequence file.
I recently heard someone else suggest this, as a way the music industry could compete better with piracy.
So, you would get all the raw tracks. When you press play, you own home system would follow the mixdown sequence file and do all the post processing and mix down that the recording engineers and artists intended. What you would get would be bit for bit the same as what they listened to.
But then, you would have the option of going back and fiddling with it.
You could listen to raw tracks. You could make altered sequence files.
You could bring most things down real low, and just one thing up at a time.
This would all promote better critical listening skills. You could fiddle with the EQ on each track.
You could take some stuff out, to play or sing along with it.
You could really pick it apart and study it.
You could even make your own tracks and mix them back in!!
You could alter the way the channels are used. Modern stero, for studio recordings is a kind of synthesized effect.
You could instead go back the old way and put different insturments on different channels.
Of course with home theater and three front channels, that could be real real neat.
It should be users, groups of users, hobbyests, who have control over how all this works. Not consumer marketeers.
I recently heard someone else suggest this, as a way the music industry could compete better with piracy.
So, you would get all the raw tracks. When you press play, you own home system would follow the mixdown sequence file and do all the post processing and mix down that the recording engineers and artists intended. What you would get would be bit for bit the same as what they listened to.
But then, you would have the option of going back and fiddling with it.
You could listen to raw tracks. You could make altered sequence files.
You could bring most things down real low, and just one thing up at a time.
This would all promote better critical listening skills. You could fiddle with the EQ on each track.
You could take some stuff out, to play or sing along with it.
You could really pick it apart and study it.
You could even make your own tracks and mix them back in!!
You could alter the way the channels are used. Modern stero, for studio recordings is a kind of synthesized effect.
You could instead go back the old way and put different insturments on different channels.
Of course with home theater and three front channels, that could be real real neat.
It should be users, groups of users, hobbyests, who have control over how all this works. Not consumer marketeers.
zmb,
you seem to have lost all sense of direction, not that you had much to start with.You have no idea of what is practical for the home user and what isn't. You don't know what works with the OS and what works as part of an application running on an OS.
You are lost because you have no firm idea of where you are going and until you decide what you want do and stick to it, this thread, amusing though it is, will go nowhere.
you seem to have lost all sense of direction, not that you had much to start with.You have no idea of what is practical for the home user and what isn't. You don't know what works with the OS and what works as part of an application running on an OS.
You are lost because you have no firm idea of where you are going and until you decide what you want do and stick to it, this thread, amusing though it is, will go nowhere.
Since I last posted you seem to have gone full circle from saying that a PC solution is not what your looking for, to promoting protools as a solution, which runs on a computer, with little regard for open source. Where the PC/MAC is the hub of most recording studio's, I think this is more than enough evidence that a PC is capable of stable audio processing, at least to the point wherean audio professional can put up with it. Do you even know that the games console is more stable than a PC?
Protools is nowhere near open source, and I dont think it is any good as a starting point for a minimal dsp 'pre amp'. Ardour is an award winning open source harware recorder, it is included with demudi,but again I dont see its relevance in a dsp pre-amp. Control through a mixing desk style interface is also easily done using opensource hardware midi contoller projects (i'll leave you to use google for that one).
Im afraid Im also with those who prefer a shorter and less complicated audio path and am not interested in dsp box that is not optimised for any particualr use. I think you are wrong when you say that control is the drivng factor for those who love vinyl and tubes, it is the audio quality. I just so happens I see potential for PC audio.
You are basically asking for the functioanlity of a PC without the processing power - what do you have against using a 1Ghz processor anyway? I The best way is to decide what you want and then how to best achieve that - why would you want to waste time designing a product that does things you might not even use?
I do not think you need to promote open source at diyaudio - the term might not be used that often - but where projects are shared freely with others offering additions and improvements to them, it is often one of the best examples of collaborative open hardware design, and it is unique to audio. If you came up with a solid project idea and put a bit of work in yourself, you would get more interested. We are now 14 pages in and still no sign of what exactly it is you want to do.
Protools is nowhere near open source, and I dont think it is any good as a starting point for a minimal dsp 'pre amp'. Ardour is an award winning open source harware recorder, it is included with demudi,but again I dont see its relevance in a dsp pre-amp. Control through a mixing desk style interface is also easily done using opensource hardware midi contoller projects (i'll leave you to use google for that one).
Im afraid Im also with those who prefer a shorter and less complicated audio path and am not interested in dsp box that is not optimised for any particualr use. I think you are wrong when you say that control is the drivng factor for those who love vinyl and tubes, it is the audio quality. I just so happens I see potential for PC audio.
You are basically asking for the functioanlity of a PC without the processing power - what do you have against using a 1Ghz processor anyway? I The best way is to decide what you want and then how to best achieve that - why would you want to waste time designing a product that does things you might not even use?
I do not think you need to promote open source at diyaudio - the term might not be used that often - but where projects are shared freely with others offering additions and improvements to them, it is often one of the best examples of collaborative open hardware design, and it is unique to audio. If you came up with a solid project idea and put a bit of work in yourself, you would get more interested. We are now 14 pages in and still no sign of what exactly it is you want to do.
Rossco_50,
<<
Since I last posted you seem to have gone full circle from saying that a PC solution is not what your looking for, to promoting protools as a solution, which runs on a computer, with little regard for open source.
>>
I'm still skeptical of PCs and their OSes as a good approach to real time audio processing. But if recording studios are using such, then I am certainly going to have to reconsider.
I want to understand how they are using such, with what OS, and how it actually works.
I am fully aware that protools is not open source. But any defacto standard can be the basis of an open source initiative. If protools is a defacto standard, then there may well be some open source stuff for it today.
If JACK works with protools, that would be an example of such.
I think much could be learned from the Sony and Digi Design systems.
<<
Where the PC/MAC is the hub of most recording studio's, I think this is more than enough evidence that a PC is capable of stable audio processing, at least to the point wherean audio professional can put up with it.
>>
I am seeing this, and I want to understand it more before I comment.
<<
Do you even know that the games console is more stable than a PC?
>>
Most things can be made to be stable with the right software. I've been involved in digital real time equipment projects. The games console could work, as could many other things.
<<
Protools is nowhere near open source, and I dont think it is any good as a starting point for a minimal dsp 'pre amp'.
>>
I am fully aware that it is not open source. But once you have a defacto standard, like Protools, or VST, you likely will have open source things made to go with it.
I agree that Protools does seem to go beyond what I envisioned with a minimal dsp preamp.
I am mostly just drooling over the Sony and Protools materials.
I am impressed, 5 band *parametric* eq!
My views as to what is the best way to go have to be open to revision, based on updated information.
<<
Ardour is an award winning open source harware recorder, it is included with demudi,but again I dont see its relevance in a dsp pre-amp.
>>
Ardour? I would like to know more about this.
<<
Control through a mixing desk style interface is also easily done using opensource hardware midi contoller projects (i'll leave you to use google for that one).
>>
I want to know more about this too.
<<
Im afraid Im also with those who prefer a shorter and less complicated audio path and am not interested in dsp box that is not optimised for any particualr use.
>>
I think much of this depends on what is available. Certainly this Sony Protools set up has more vitural knobs than most people could fathom. But I think once there is a good architecture, people will use what of it they want.
<<
I think you are wrong when you say that control is the drivng factor for those who love vinyl and tubes, it is the audio quality. I just so happens I see potential for PC audio.
>>
I think people are alienated by the way digital audio has been presented, and digital appliances in general.
<<
You are basically asking for the functioanlity of a PC without the processing power - what do you have against using a 1Ghz processor anyway? I The best way is to decide what you want and then how to best achieve that - why would you want to waste time designing a product that does things you might not even use?
>>
My feeling is that it is best to separate the user interface and source material management from the core real time processing. That core processing does not have to be that complex. But I will admit that with the protools approach, you could have some heavy DSP demands because so many channels can be treated independently.
I think it is the user interface and hard disk demands that slow PCs down. Once they went away from character generators and went to windows and full bit maps, the CPU requirements escalated.
When you are doing DSP, the less other time synchronized things you have to contend with the better.
I kind of like the idea of a DSP box, with the option of adding other stacked boards for more processing in parallel, and then something else for the use interface.
But having said that, i want to see how these pro systems and more basic systems actually do operate.
We have to start from where we are at.
I also want to learn from what others have done and are doing.
<<
I do not think you need to promote open source at diyaudio - the term might not be used that often - but where projects are shared freely with others offering additions and improvements to them, it is often one of the best examples of collaborative open hardware design, and it is unique to audio.
>>
Its going to take running commentary and analysis to keep up with what is happening. The number of links and anachronyms already surfaced on this thread is bogling my mind.
I believe this is an area which is exploding.
<<
If you came up with a solid project idea and put a bit of work in yourself, you would get more interested. We are now 14 pages in and still no sign of what exactly it is you want to do.
>>
There is a great deal of stuff on this thread which is just negative meta. I just ignore it.
There is also some tremendous info, like what you have provided.
To define a project, I first need to know what already exists. Then I have to decide what is missing, and how it should be. I am a long way from that. The number of different approaches out there that all do something, is huge. My interest in this is long term. It didn't start recently, it won't end anytime soon. So my first and ongoing project is to understand what is already available, and how it works.
Cross postings are going up at Audio Explorations
http://groups.google.com/group/audioex_amps_dght?lnk=li
Come and join, and post. Best to join with only Digest Email. Some people had full email and they may have gotten inundated.
Right here in front of me I have "Home Recording Power!" by Ben Milstead. It is highly relevant, and it does seem to support a greater role for PCs that I had originally suggested.
ZMB
<<
Since I last posted you seem to have gone full circle from saying that a PC solution is not what your looking for, to promoting protools as a solution, which runs on a computer, with little regard for open source.
>>
I'm still skeptical of PCs and their OSes as a good approach to real time audio processing. But if recording studios are using such, then I am certainly going to have to reconsider.
I want to understand how they are using such, with what OS, and how it actually works.
I am fully aware that protools is not open source. But any defacto standard can be the basis of an open source initiative. If protools is a defacto standard, then there may well be some open source stuff for it today.
If JACK works with protools, that would be an example of such.
I think much could be learned from the Sony and Digi Design systems.
<<
Where the PC/MAC is the hub of most recording studio's, I think this is more than enough evidence that a PC is capable of stable audio processing, at least to the point wherean audio professional can put up with it.
>>
I am seeing this, and I want to understand it more before I comment.
<<
Do you even know that the games console is more stable than a PC?
>>
Most things can be made to be stable with the right software. I've been involved in digital real time equipment projects. The games console could work, as could many other things.
<<
Protools is nowhere near open source, and I dont think it is any good as a starting point for a minimal dsp 'pre amp'.
>>
I am fully aware that it is not open source. But once you have a defacto standard, like Protools, or VST, you likely will have open source things made to go with it.
I agree that Protools does seem to go beyond what I envisioned with a minimal dsp preamp.
I am mostly just drooling over the Sony and Protools materials.
I am impressed, 5 band *parametric* eq!
My views as to what is the best way to go have to be open to revision, based on updated information.
<<
Ardour is an award winning open source harware recorder, it is included with demudi,but again I dont see its relevance in a dsp pre-amp.
>>
Ardour? I would like to know more about this.
<<
Control through a mixing desk style interface is also easily done using opensource hardware midi contoller projects (i'll leave you to use google for that one).
>>
I want to know more about this too.
<<
Im afraid Im also with those who prefer a shorter and less complicated audio path and am not interested in dsp box that is not optimised for any particualr use.
>>
I think much of this depends on what is available. Certainly this Sony Protools set up has more vitural knobs than most people could fathom. But I think once there is a good architecture, people will use what of it they want.
<<
I think you are wrong when you say that control is the drivng factor for those who love vinyl and tubes, it is the audio quality. I just so happens I see potential for PC audio.
>>
I think people are alienated by the way digital audio has been presented, and digital appliances in general.
<<
You are basically asking for the functioanlity of a PC without the processing power - what do you have against using a 1Ghz processor anyway? I The best way is to decide what you want and then how to best achieve that - why would you want to waste time designing a product that does things you might not even use?
>>
My feeling is that it is best to separate the user interface and source material management from the core real time processing. That core processing does not have to be that complex. But I will admit that with the protools approach, you could have some heavy DSP demands because so many channels can be treated independently.
I think it is the user interface and hard disk demands that slow PCs down. Once they went away from character generators and went to windows and full bit maps, the CPU requirements escalated.
When you are doing DSP, the less other time synchronized things you have to contend with the better.
I kind of like the idea of a DSP box, with the option of adding other stacked boards for more processing in parallel, and then something else for the use interface.
But having said that, i want to see how these pro systems and more basic systems actually do operate.
We have to start from where we are at.
I also want to learn from what others have done and are doing.
<<
I do not think you need to promote open source at diyaudio - the term might not be used that often - but where projects are shared freely with others offering additions and improvements to them, it is often one of the best examples of collaborative open hardware design, and it is unique to audio.
>>
Its going to take running commentary and analysis to keep up with what is happening. The number of links and anachronyms already surfaced on this thread is bogling my mind.
I believe this is an area which is exploding.
<<
If you came up with a solid project idea and put a bit of work in yourself, you would get more interested. We are now 14 pages in and still no sign of what exactly it is you want to do.
>>
There is a great deal of stuff on this thread which is just negative meta. I just ignore it.
There is also some tremendous info, like what you have provided.
To define a project, I first need to know what already exists. Then I have to decide what is missing, and how it should be. I am a long way from that. The number of different approaches out there that all do something, is huge. My interest in this is long term. It didn't start recently, it won't end anytime soon. So my first and ongoing project is to understand what is already available, and how it works.
Cross postings are going up at Audio Explorations
http://groups.google.com/group/audioex_amps_dght?lnk=li
Come and join, and post. Best to join with only Digest Email. Some people had full email and they may have gotten inundated.
Right here in front of me I have "Home Recording Power!" by Ben Milstead. It is highly relevant, and it does seem to support a greater role for PCs that I had originally suggested.
ZMB
Reading: Home Recording Power! by Ben Milstead.
The systems he advocates are not open source, and run under M$ Windows.
I have my reservations about this, but I still want to understand how well some of this stuff works.
Again, when there are defacto standards, there can become a nucleus for Open Source. Also, when you have Open Source, it can be supported on multiple platforms.
Milstead endorses:
SONAR
Sound Forge 6.0, from Sonic Foundry
Cool Edit Pro
Pro-Logic
He also endorses the DirectX plug in standard. Sound like this was originally for games? Uses hardware abstraction layer, (HAL)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX
He shows the following DirectX type plug ins:
TC Works' Native DeX, for dynamics processing
Antares' Microphone Modeler
AnalogX's free vocal remover
He talks about sound cards. Of course he wants a two way sound card. Some have S/PDIF coaxial connectors too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF
Milstead mentions such cards from
Korg 1212 I/O
Digidesign AudioMedia III
Emu Audio Production Studio
Ensoniq PARIS
Emagic Audiowerk
Even Electronics' Lavla
Cross posted on Audio Explorations, now 10 groups, more coming.
http://groups.google.com/group/audioex_digital/browse_thread/thread/2d0fd6d3020ee74e?hl=en
Join and start posting. Digest email recommended.
The systems he advocates are not open source, and run under M$ Windows.
I have my reservations about this, but I still want to understand how well some of this stuff works.
Again, when there are defacto standards, there can become a nucleus for Open Source. Also, when you have Open Source, it can be supported on multiple platforms.
Milstead endorses:
SONAR
Sound Forge 6.0, from Sonic Foundry
Cool Edit Pro
Pro-Logic
He also endorses the DirectX plug in standard. Sound like this was originally for games? Uses hardware abstraction layer, (HAL)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX
He shows the following DirectX type plug ins:
TC Works' Native DeX, for dynamics processing
Antares' Microphone Modeler
AnalogX's free vocal remover
He talks about sound cards. Of course he wants a two way sound card. Some have S/PDIF coaxial connectors too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF
Milstead mentions such cards from
Korg 1212 I/O
Digidesign AudioMedia III
Emu Audio Production Studio
Ensoniq PARIS
Emagic Audiowerk
Even Electronics' Lavla
Cross posted on Audio Explorations, now 10 groups, more coming.
http://groups.google.com/group/audioex_digital/browse_thread/thread/2d0fd6d3020ee74e?hl=en
Join and start posting. Digest email recommended.
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