I just finished building a 4 tube Aikido pre-amp for my T-amp and chip amp. Its performance is underwhelming compare to a simple one tube plate follower. The one tube amp sound more dynamic and has better imaging. Both amps uses the same 12AU7 tubes, and I used premium parts with the Aikido. 
What are your experiences with tube pre-amps? Is the simpler the better?
What are your experiences with tube pre-amps? Is the simpler the better?
Exactly. My guess is that the Aikido simply outperforms the one-tube amp and that it just doesn't seem the be there; it's probably more or less fully transparent.
Imaging and dynamics are not related to 2nd harmonics. 2nd harmonics make the sound smoother or "warmer". So maybe the simple plate follower has some advantages, probably related to its simplicity.
But... the only thing that really counts is: If YOU like it more then the aikido, by all means use it.
Paul.
But... the only thing that really counts is: If YOU like it more then the aikido, by all means use it.
Paul.
I agree with Pauldine about imaging and dynamics are not related with 2nd harmonics.
I have tube preamp (2 tubes) first forking like a gain stage and second like power follower-lowering impedance. Adding more tubes doesnt make sence. If you are satisfied with sound of only one tube then use it. I have same experience, adding more tubes kills the sound.
I have tube preamp (2 tubes) first forking like a gain stage and second like power follower-lowering impedance. Adding more tubes doesnt make sence. If you are satisfied with sound of only one tube then use it. I have same experience, adding more tubes kills the sound.
Thank you all for your responses.
Very true, the ideal preamp would be totally transparent.
To my ears, the Aikido does not seems to be transparent. It is very neutral for sure. On loud burst of string passages, it sound a bit bog down, a bit less dynamic and lose some immediacy. I observe the sine wave response from a function generator through the Aikido, everything seems fine, no clipping, no roll off till about 35KHZ.
Very true also that the single tube plate follower modifies the sound. Compare to straight cable it improves the imaging, for which I can not explain why. It adds some "liveliness" to vocal and guitar performances. Tube rolling makes noticeable differences to it character.
My preference so far: Single tube plate follower > straight cable > Aikido
After bitten by the tube bug, maybe my expectations are misplaced and set too high for the Aikido.
Very true, the ideal preamp would be totally transparent.
To my ears, the Aikido does not seems to be transparent. It is very neutral for sure. On loud burst of string passages, it sound a bit bog down, a bit less dynamic and lose some immediacy. I observe the sine wave response from a function generator through the Aikido, everything seems fine, no clipping, no roll off till about 35KHZ.
Very true also that the single tube plate follower modifies the sound. Compare to straight cable it improves the imaging, for which I can not explain why. It adds some "liveliness" to vocal and guitar performances. Tube rolling makes noticeable differences to it character.
My preference so far: Single tube plate follower > straight cable > Aikido
After bitten by the tube bug, maybe my expectations are misplaced and set too high for the Aikido.
I thought transparent=neutral? The Aikido is supposed to simply amplify the signal, so apart from the gain you should not notice that it is there. If a line stage appears to 'improve' a straight cable then either the cable is too long or the listener prefers an effects box.
It may be that you expect a valve stage to distort the signal, so miss this when it does not?
quote:
<snip>
To be blunt I for one would question your listening capabilities.
I tend to prefer simple design solutions, and to me there is the possibility that Aikido is excessively complex for what it does. Not having heard the two line stages within the discussed context I cannot have a valid opinion about the OP's hearing acuity, and I think the above comment about his hearing is unwarranted. We don't know what exactly it is he is listening to or what aspects of the performance are most important to him. How does the above comment usefully further this discussion?
What is it to you that he might prefer something else to the Aikido?
Given the amps he is driving with the one tube line stage it is not impossible that the added colorations complement the sonic character of the power amplifier. It is also possible that the single stage line stage has some aspect of performance that the Aikido can't match.
I have no idea, and I doubt anyone else here does either unless they have heard this specific case.
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I have not heard either preamp but I have heard many people express that their experiences with active loads was that the dynamics were somewhat constrained so I wouldn't be too quick to write off the possibility that something real is happening that is not related to the harmonic structure. I think we jump to the assumption that things are related to HD as a reflexive action since it is easy to measure. But correlation and causation are not necessarily the same thing. Maybe it is, maybe not.
DF96,
Transparent, I define it as to have no effect what so ever to the source signal, what go in is what comes out, other than amplification. Neutral would be to have no emphasis or dip to any particular frequency range.
6BG6GA, I aim my system to reproduce as close to the feeling of being in the presence of a live performance. I don't pertain to have any special listening abilities. I am not bias towards any particular sound or technology. Tube, SS, pure, distorted or processed. As long as it gives me as much of that live performance feeling, I am happy.
A little background:
It all started when I was setting up an inexpensive system for my office consisting of Topping TP30 (all in one, USB DAC, headphone, and a low power TA-2024 T-amp), driving a pair of Energy RC-Minis. A single tube buffer was added later as a novelty.
The ultimate goal for my main sound system, as I said before, is to get as close to a front row live performance feeling as possible. To that end, I have a SACD system consisting of a 65lb flagship Yamaha surround sound processor with 9 speakers, trying to reproduce that magic.
I was pretty happy with my system, until, out of curiosity, I hookup my little office setup to my main speakers. I was blown away by the cheap system sounding better than my SACD system with certain CDs, and best some of my 5.1 SACDs with just two speakers. Providing a better 'live' performance. The tube buffer adds to that liveliness to the performance compare to the T-amp alone. Now I am hook on fiddling around with T-amps, chip amps and tube buffers/preamps. Haven't started with tube power amps yet.
Five T-amps, four chip amps and two tube preamps (few more circuits to try out); so far I like T-amps better than chip amps. All the T-amps I tried sound alike, they are all very good. I guess I enjoy that 'liveliness' effects added to the music by the single tube plate follower over the neutral Aikido. I'll give the two tube Aikido CF circuit a try and see what it is like.
Transparent, I define it as to have no effect what so ever to the source signal, what go in is what comes out, other than amplification. Neutral would be to have no emphasis or dip to any particular frequency range.
6BG6GA, I aim my system to reproduce as close to the feeling of being in the presence of a live performance. I don't pertain to have any special listening abilities. I am not bias towards any particular sound or technology. Tube, SS, pure, distorted or processed. As long as it gives me as much of that live performance feeling, I am happy.
A little background:
It all started when I was setting up an inexpensive system for my office consisting of Topping TP30 (all in one, USB DAC, headphone, and a low power TA-2024 T-amp), driving a pair of Energy RC-Minis. A single tube buffer was added later as a novelty.
The ultimate goal for my main sound system, as I said before, is to get as close to a front row live performance feeling as possible. To that end, I have a SACD system consisting of a 65lb flagship Yamaha surround sound processor with 9 speakers, trying to reproduce that magic.
I was pretty happy with my system, until, out of curiosity, I hookup my little office setup to my main speakers. I was blown away by the cheap system sounding better than my SACD system with certain CDs, and best some of my 5.1 SACDs with just two speakers. Providing a better 'live' performance. The tube buffer adds to that liveliness to the performance compare to the T-amp alone. Now I am hook on fiddling around with T-amps, chip amps and tube buffers/preamps. Haven't started with tube power amps yet.
Five T-amps, four chip amps and two tube preamps (few more circuits to try out); so far I like T-amps better than chip amps. All the T-amps I tried sound alike, they are all very good. I guess I enjoy that 'liveliness' effects added to the music by the single tube plate follower over the neutral Aikido.
I'll give the two tube Aikido CF circuit a try and see what it is like.
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Dear Homl,
Sometimes one tube is better than four, sometimes four are better than one.
Sometimes long back I started with a small and simple system, then I had all the gizmos of the world. Now I have come back to a simple system again.
AIKIDO PRE (Next try will be 26 plate follower)
300B SE in simplest form (with world's best components)-no change
modified 206 in every cab, Jericho, hedland, curvy chang and what not - next want to try onken / basshorn (with 416, 515 may be) + horn loaded cpmpression driver 400/500-up 2 way with 6bd lowpass only-will it be ever possible, where will I get a pair of we large format driver??
MY ADVICE
do not burn yourself soul with tech voodoos do and like whatever you like. One day you would know and not need any openion should you stick with this passion.
Regards
Sometimes one tube is better than four, sometimes four are better than one.
Sometimes long back I started with a small and simple system, then I had all the gizmos of the world. Now I have come back to a simple system again.
AIKIDO PRE (Next try will be 26 plate follower)
300B SE in simplest form (with world's best components)-no change
modified 206 in every cab, Jericho, hedland, curvy chang and what not - next want to try onken / basshorn (with 416, 515 may be) + horn loaded cpmpression driver 400/500-up 2 way with 6bd lowpass only-will it be ever possible, where will I get a pair of we large format driver??
MY ADVICE
do not burn yourself soul with tech voodoos do and like whatever you like. One day you would know and not need any openion should you stick with this passion.
Regards
Maybe you are overloading tripath power amp with sources ~ 2VRMS and Aikido (preamp with high gain). Tripath distorts badly if overloaded. For TA2020 (and TA2024) I prefer preamp with ~ unity gain (cathode follower or solid state buffer), so input is below 2VRMS. Higher gain, if needed, can be achieved in tripath stage itself by different values of RI & RF resistors.
Try to connect your signal source or generator directly to tripath, with 2VRMS 0dB sine wave and observe OVLD pin. Try it even with 1VRMS.
--
L_u_k_a_s
Try to connect your signal source or generator directly to tripath, with 2VRMS 0dB sine wave and observe OVLD pin. Try it even with 1VRMS.
--
L_u_k_a_s
Quote:
I tend to prefer simple design solutions, and to me there is the possibility that Aikido is excessively complex for what it does. Not having heard the two line stages within the discussed context I cannot have a valid opinion about the OP's hearing acuity, and I think the above comment about his hearing is unwarranted. We don't know what exactly it is he is listening to or what aspects of the performance are most important to him. How does the above comment usefully further this discussion?
What is it to you that he might prefer something else to the Aikido?
Kevin, I made a comment and it really doesn't concern you in any way shape or form. Since your not a moderator you really do not have a say as to the usefulness of my comment. Not having heard either line stage I would assume that your comments may not be warranted. That's just my opinion having heard both line stages in question. Complex? I would have said the Aikido is simple other than the addition of a stage designed to lower noise and distortion. Having built a half dozen different varieties of the Aikido I have to pull the ******** cord when someone questions the performance of the design. Never heard anything that sounded strained or distorted running thru the Aikido. Have put the Aikido up against designs costing thousands of dollars and the Aikido always wins.
I tend to prefer simple design solutions, and to me there is the possibility that Aikido is excessively complex for what it does. Not having heard the two line stages within the discussed context I cannot have a valid opinion about the OP's hearing acuity, and I think the above comment about his hearing is unwarranted. We don't know what exactly it is he is listening to or what aspects of the performance are most important to him. How does the above comment usefully further this discussion?
What is it to you that he might prefer something else to the Aikido?
Kevin, I made a comment and it really doesn't concern you in any way shape or form. Since your not a moderator you really do not have a say as to the usefulness of my comment. Not having heard either line stage I would assume that your comments may not be warranted. That's just my opinion having heard both line stages in question. Complex? I would have said the Aikido is simple other than the addition of a stage designed to lower noise and distortion. Having built a half dozen different varieties of the Aikido I have to pull the ******** cord when someone questions the performance of the design. Never heard anything that sounded strained or distorted running thru the Aikido. Have put the Aikido up against designs costing thousands of dollars and the Aikido always wins.
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