Hi Guys,
I am new here. I recently got a pioneer sc-07 receiver (150 W per channel) and Energy take 5 speakers with Energy 300 Watts ESW-V10 subwoofer. This is all connected to an i7 multimedia PC equipped with the Auzentech X-Fi HD sound card which outputs HD audio through HDMI to the receiver.
I felt i need a larger set of the front speakers at least at the beginning. searching the market for new speakers with good brands made me feel the prices are too much for the quality and power of these speakers. Then i decided i need to build my own. The speaker drivers in the market around me are mostly chinese. So through the net i saw this forum and as well i have seen fostex full range drivers in other places. A good start with less trouble of 3way speakers and crossovers.
I have small space for the speaker towers in the living room. I would like to use the FE207E ultimately but i might consider smaller diameter speakers so that they can fit with living room limited space, so i might use (1 or 2) FE167E in one box/channel, or even (2 or 4) FE127E in one box/channel? I am a little puzzled with what combination would be best. My room is 4 by 3.5 meters but open from one side to a larger area.
I would be gratefull if someone enlightens me of the differences between the above combinations. For example would 2 FE127E give enough bass comparable to the FE207E? or would 2xFE167E surpass the FE207E? or would 4xFE127E surpass the FE207E without loosing the benefits from single driver in a box?
I am still new so any advice would be excellent. Is a tweeter necessary with the above drivers (even the small size ones)?
I am new here. I recently got a pioneer sc-07 receiver (150 W per channel) and Energy take 5 speakers with Energy 300 Watts ESW-V10 subwoofer. This is all connected to an i7 multimedia PC equipped with the Auzentech X-Fi HD sound card which outputs HD audio through HDMI to the receiver.
I felt i need a larger set of the front speakers at least at the beginning. searching the market for new speakers with good brands made me feel the prices are too much for the quality and power of these speakers. Then i decided i need to build my own. The speaker drivers in the market around me are mostly chinese. So through the net i saw this forum and as well i have seen fostex full range drivers in other places. A good start with less trouble of 3way speakers and crossovers.
I have small space for the speaker towers in the living room. I would like to use the FE207E ultimately but i might consider smaller diameter speakers so that they can fit with living room limited space, so i might use (1 or 2) FE167E in one box/channel, or even (2 or 4) FE127E in one box/channel? I am a little puzzled with what combination would be best. My room is 4 by 3.5 meters but open from one side to a larger area.
I would be gratefull if someone enlightens me of the differences between the above combinations. For example would 2 FE127E give enough bass comparable to the FE207E? or would 2xFE167E surpass the FE207E? or would 4xFE127E surpass the FE207E without loosing the benefits from single driver in a box?
I am still new so any advice would be excellent. Is a tweeter necessary with the above drivers (even the small size ones)?
Paralleling multiple fullrange drivers on the front of the cabinet will create comb filtering, which undesirable. I have had several customers ask me about using a parallel pair of my drivers, and I generally advise them to avoid it. (Despite the fact that I wouldn't mind selling more speakers!)
However, I've heard of folks doing it and being happy. I've also seen folks write that comb filtering isn't always audible. The comb filtering will begin at lower frequencies with the bigger drivers, which is generally a bad thing as you hear better in the midrange than treble. However, the larger drivers also generally have more high frequency rise, and as comb filtering would probably audibly shelve down the high frequencies, maybe it would somehow balance out for some folks.
The safe bet, IMHO, is to stick to one fullrange driver per speaker unless they are really small (and there are some particularly tiny drivers on the market). If you are more adventurous and want to give multiple drivers a shot, I'd be curious to hear about your experience. I wouldn't advise spending much time or money on the first cabinet though.
If you can move the speakers out into the room (not against a wall), then you can consider dipole arrangements with a driver on both the front and rear of the cabinet. Two smaller fullrangers can also be employed in dipole and bipole surround speakers.
If you want to try a couple of different things, you might consider 8" fullrangers in TL or ML-TL's for your mains, something sealed for the center channel, and then bipole/dipole surround speaker with a pair of smaller drivers.
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
However, I've heard of folks doing it and being happy. I've also seen folks write that comb filtering isn't always audible. The comb filtering will begin at lower frequencies with the bigger drivers, which is generally a bad thing as you hear better in the midrange than treble. However, the larger drivers also generally have more high frequency rise, and as comb filtering would probably audibly shelve down the high frequencies, maybe it would somehow balance out for some folks.
The safe bet, IMHO, is to stick to one fullrange driver per speaker unless they are really small (and there are some particularly tiny drivers on the market). If you are more adventurous and want to give multiple drivers a shot, I'd be curious to hear about your experience. I wouldn't advise spending much time or money on the first cabinet though.
If you can move the speakers out into the room (not against a wall), then you can consider dipole arrangements with a driver on both the front and rear of the cabinet. Two smaller fullrangers can also be employed in dipole and bipole surround speakers.
If you want to try a couple of different things, you might consider 8" fullrangers in TL or ML-TL's for your mains, something sealed for the center channel, and then bipole/dipole surround speaker with a pair of smaller drivers.
Paul
Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers
Dear Paul,
Thank you for the response. I am learning new things everyday but bare with me my ignorance in some of the matters (although am doing some search over the net to minimize this). I tend to agree by intuition (not deep experience) that a single powerfull driver would be better as a safe experience especially that although it is a self done project, i am mainly using the experience of a carpenter to help me build the boxes and i'd have to learn a lot to guide him for a good design, nevertheless as i have mentioned, i am limited with asthetics (i.e. having to have a thin type of tower box in order to fit the furniture of the living room, so i have to sacrifice some performance).
Now, the 8 incher is the best bargin as power and bass reproduction i think, and i am thinking of adding a ribbon tweeter although the Fostex tweeters are almost the same price of the fullrange speaker (so more money to spend). since i am using the FE207E, i might go for a bass reflex type cabinet for now. The shape i am planning to fit the furniture might be starting as cylindrical at bottom and ending by half cylinder on top where the speaker lies so that i can fit the bass reflex tube in the full cylinder part at bottom ( I am new i know 🙂)
now back to my first questions, if we exclude comb filtering for a second, amongst the speaker combinations i have mentioned, which will deliver acceptable power? bass performance? etc.
another question would be, if i put 2xFE127E in a closed box for center speaker, would that be adequate? do they need a tweeter? in fact the combination of 2xFE127E was as well a preferred one for the LR channels because they can fit in a smaller tower, and also the comb filtering might be less due to their smaller sizes! but would they produce good power and bass?
Thank you for the response. I am learning new things everyday but bare with me my ignorance in some of the matters (although am doing some search over the net to minimize this). I tend to agree by intuition (not deep experience) that a single powerfull driver would be better as a safe experience especially that although it is a self done project, i am mainly using the experience of a carpenter to help me build the boxes and i'd have to learn a lot to guide him for a good design, nevertheless as i have mentioned, i am limited with asthetics (i.e. having to have a thin type of tower box in order to fit the furniture of the living room, so i have to sacrifice some performance).
Now, the 8 incher is the best bargin as power and bass reproduction i think, and i am thinking of adding a ribbon tweeter although the Fostex tweeters are almost the same price of the fullrange speaker (so more money to spend). since i am using the FE207E, i might go for a bass reflex type cabinet for now. The shape i am planning to fit the furniture might be starting as cylindrical at bottom and ending by half cylinder on top where the speaker lies so that i can fit the bass reflex tube in the full cylinder part at bottom ( I am new i know 🙂)
now back to my first questions, if we exclude comb filtering for a second, amongst the speaker combinations i have mentioned, which will deliver acceptable power? bass performance? etc.
another question would be, if i put 2xFE127E in a closed box for center speaker, would that be adequate? do they need a tweeter? in fact the combination of 2xFE127E was as well a preferred one for the LR channels because they can fit in a smaller tower, and also the comb filtering might be less due to their smaller sizes! but would they produce good power and bass?
Whatever you do, have the exact same setup, meaning same speaker for left, center, and right.
I had luck with 2 x 4" TB bamboo, but the vertical sweet spot is tiny at 12'. But I like them because I believe smaller drivers have better detail than larger ones, especially without a whizzer.
But for most, I'd recommend a single 207e for left, center, and right.
That's a safe recommendation.
2 x fe127e = area of a single fe167e which is 1/2 of a 207e (close).
I've also found that the highest end can be missing watching movies due to the horrible sound quality of dolby digital (and dts). Breaking glass can make you cringe on a system that goes flat up to 20khz (compression). I had luck with a horn that gradually rolled above 5khz, then dropped like a rock at 10khz. But music was different.
Norman
I had luck with 2 x 4" TB bamboo, but the vertical sweet spot is tiny at 12'. But I like them because I believe smaller drivers have better detail than larger ones, especially without a whizzer.
But for most, I'd recommend a single 207e for left, center, and right.
That's a safe recommendation.
2 x fe127e = area of a single fe167e which is 1/2 of a 207e (close).
I've also found that the highest end can be missing watching movies due to the horrible sound quality of dolby digital (and dts). Breaking glass can make you cringe on a system that goes flat up to 20khz (compression). I had luck with a horn that gradually rolled above 5khz, then dropped like a rock at 10khz. But music was different.
Norman
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thank you norman for the recommendations. I do like larger speakers, I beleive the 207e is as large as i can put after i have convinced the wife that i will use a nice looking tower cabinet. for the center, i doubt that i can run away with a 207E, two smaller 127e will look better next to the LCd TV. Especially that currently my system and surround speakers are the energy take 5 satellites. nice little speakers backed up by a 300W rms 10 inch subwoofer capable of 23 Hz (based on specs).
Now to be fair the current sound that i have in my mid size room is very nice as i am using computer based processing in addition to the SC-07 pioneer. While watching Bluray movies i am experiencing true HD or DTS HD. The sound card is upsampling mp3 files (or more precisely ammeliorating them). Nevertheless the satellites are small, and they are crossoverd at 100Hz with subwoofer (the sc07 does not give option for 120 Hz). the satellites are not excellent perfomers i believe in the 100Hz to 300 Hz) or possibly as well lower mid range frequencies but that is not obvious for the unexperienced as the front ones are put in the wooden large cabinet holding as well the LCD TV thus generating slightly better bass.
I am mainly building these towers for music listening as i want to have nice sound from front LR speakers without the need to use stereo surround capabilities (i.e. using as well surround speakers) of the sound card or receiver. and as well enjoying higher mids. Now even if i used 2x127e for the center, i can live with some tweeking through the receiver for movies purpose (i know then i will not be benefiting from the full power of the 207 in movies but that is fine for movies, my room is not big.
Now to be fair the current sound that i have in my mid size room is very nice as i am using computer based processing in addition to the SC-07 pioneer. While watching Bluray movies i am experiencing true HD or DTS HD. The sound card is upsampling mp3 files (or more precisely ammeliorating them). Nevertheless the satellites are small, and they are crossoverd at 100Hz with subwoofer (the sc07 does not give option for 120 Hz). the satellites are not excellent perfomers i believe in the 100Hz to 300 Hz) or possibly as well lower mid range frequencies but that is not obvious for the unexperienced as the front ones are put in the wooden large cabinet holding as well the LCD TV thus generating slightly better bass.
I am mainly building these towers for music listening as i want to have nice sound from front LR speakers without the need to use stereo surround capabilities (i.e. using as well surround speakers) of the sound card or receiver. and as well enjoying higher mids. Now even if i used 2x127e for the center, i can live with some tweeking through the receiver for movies purpose (i know then i will not be benefiting from the full power of the 207 in movies but that is fine for movies, my room is not big.
What I take as the crux of this situation really comes down to "how important is the center channel speaker?"
It probably wouldn't be hard to find support for the opinion it's the most important speaker in a "proper" multichannel system. At the very least, you'd probably want to use identical drivers and as close to similarly voiced enclosure designs as possible for the front row. I'd imagine a single FE167E per channel would suffice, particularly if supported by powered sub(s), and if the room is not big.
Indeed, if the room is small enough, even FE127E all 'round could well work out, both sonically and in terms of more manageable enclosure sizes. The smaller driver also has the advantage of generally needing very little assistance in the upper octaves - while I personally find it quite acceptable solo, judicial amounts of EQ might be all that's required if you find the top end lacking - certainly a lot of folks are quite happy using the FE127 without tweeters.
There are any number of well documented tower style enclosures for either of these drivers, ranging from MLTLs to BVR to resistively vented "-kens".
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Joined 2002
It is the important speaker of the 5.1-7.1 setup's 🙂 Center is where all the voices / dialogue comes from, so center should be addressed as one of the most important.
In a 2.1 - 2.0 setup the left and right should be identical 🙂
Setup many many 5.1-7.1's and you woulden't belive how many people miss match the centers, then complain - wine about how the center is so quiet or not as clear etc etc.
I did setup a really nice system as the customer said he didn't have much room for big subwoofer so i told him buy 2 8" ones ( energy at the time ) and we used those with his tower's and center speaker. he was thrilled, at the start he didn't believe me that 2 8" would be loud, I said if you don't find it loud i'll pay for the 10" that he wanted, well in the end he said the 8" were loud and that was all he needed 🙂
The center is critical, you need something that can give you output than a single left or right can do.
A single 167e is better than 2 x 127e due to vertical dispersion purposes for your use.
But I'd use 207e all the way across the front.
Better is better, and how many hours are you going to use this ?
It's worth it if you could make it work.
Norman
A single 167e is better than 2 x 127e due to vertical dispersion purposes for your use.
But I'd use 207e all the way across the front.
Better is better, and how many hours are you going to use this ?
It's worth it if you could make it work.
Norman
Of course my question posed earlier was bait for the above couple of replies, but let's not forget that goldorak has indicated that this is a "small" room (actual dimensions could be handy), and that 3 enclosures suitable for 207s could be more than a bit imposing. At the risk of repetition, 167s, particularly with bass augmentation might well be adequate for this particular application.
Guys,
I appreciate the discussion. I do agree that having 207E in the entire front is best, no argument. And of course using the 127e would be better from point of view aesthetics but hey J we like things bigger. Well it is not about bigger only, but hearing a larger speaker is more pleasant, more punch/presence, etc.
I have mentioned a rough estimate of my room dimensions earlier, it is LxWxH = 4x3.5x3 in meters of course. The room has the shape of a rectangle almost with one part of one side (around 3 meters of the 4 meters length side) open to a larger space and the rest of the house. The room tends to “preserve” the sound I would say by meaning that the current setup seems powerful "enough" when put at high volumes but not plentiful in frequency ranges such as mid bass and lower mid range. Treble is fine with the energy satellites. The sub is compensating a lot for the lower power of the satellites.
I was saying that I can live with a down sampled performance of the 207Es as LR speakers when in 5.1 mode, wouldn’t that work, i.e. having 2x127E in the center thus only using the power of the LR 207Es to match this power only when in 5.1 and using the full power of LR when in stereo listening?
I might get away with 2x167 for the center if the total width of the box put horizontally is 20 cm (the length can be larger), as this is the space available above the TV (to keep things tidy), other then that I might put it under the TV if I remove its stand and hang it on the back of the large wooden tv stand where it is lying now.
I am afraid however that the 2x167 might shake the wooden tv stand to resonate because it has wooden doors, even another glass door where the receiver and Home theatre PC lies, etc.
Another question popping up, I was looking at some tweeters from Fostex (might buy from Madisound Store online as I am not in the US), and they are expensive, the models I am looking at are the ribbon tweeter FT7RP (because of its considerably lower price in comparison to the other one) and the T90A which fostex recommends with the 207E in their drawings. Is the T90A much better then the FT7RP? I as well just seen the FT207D which is shielded (better next to the receiver) and lower price and has the same number of the 207e (is that intended?). But the T90A has the higher sensitivity. Any ideas in that area? The FT7RP tweeter is almost the price of the 207E, and the T90A is even higher, that is pretty expensive; the FT207D is the cheapest. Do I need to use Fostex capacitors to filter the tweeter or Chinese made capacitors for 2 dollars in my electronic shop would be enough?
I appreciate the discussion. I do agree that having 207E in the entire front is best, no argument. And of course using the 127e would be better from point of view aesthetics but hey J we like things bigger. Well it is not about bigger only, but hearing a larger speaker is more pleasant, more punch/presence, etc.
I have mentioned a rough estimate of my room dimensions earlier, it is LxWxH = 4x3.5x3 in meters of course. The room has the shape of a rectangle almost with one part of one side (around 3 meters of the 4 meters length side) open to a larger space and the rest of the house. The room tends to “preserve” the sound I would say by meaning that the current setup seems powerful "enough" when put at high volumes but not plentiful in frequency ranges such as mid bass and lower mid range. Treble is fine with the energy satellites. The sub is compensating a lot for the lower power of the satellites.
I was saying that I can live with a down sampled performance of the 207Es as LR speakers when in 5.1 mode, wouldn’t that work, i.e. having 2x127E in the center thus only using the power of the LR 207Es to match this power only when in 5.1 and using the full power of LR when in stereo listening?
I might get away with 2x167 for the center if the total width of the box put horizontally is 20 cm (the length can be larger), as this is the space available above the TV (to keep things tidy), other then that I might put it under the TV if I remove its stand and hang it on the back of the large wooden tv stand where it is lying now.
I am afraid however that the 2x167 might shake the wooden tv stand to resonate because it has wooden doors, even another glass door where the receiver and Home theatre PC lies, etc.
Another question popping up, I was looking at some tweeters from Fostex (might buy from Madisound Store online as I am not in the US), and they are expensive, the models I am looking at are the ribbon tweeter FT7RP (because of its considerably lower price in comparison to the other one) and the T90A which fostex recommends with the 207E in their drawings. Is the T90A much better then the FT7RP? I as well just seen the FT207D which is shielded (better next to the receiver) and lower price and has the same number of the 207e (is that intended?). But the T90A has the higher sensitivity. Any ideas in that area? The FT7RP tweeter is almost the price of the 207E, and the T90A is even higher, that is pretty expensive; the FT207D is the cheapest. Do I need to use Fostex capacitors to filter the tweeter or Chinese made capacitors for 2 dollars in my electronic shop would be enough?
This is not a particularly big room (14 M^2 or 150ft^2); by the time accommodation is made for seating and the A/V equipment itself, you could well be running out of space for larger enclosure sizes. If you're interested in using Fostex drivers, I strongly suggest you consider a single FE167E in MLTL or such for each of the front 3 channels. In a well designed sized enclosure, these drivers do not represent much of a compromise in dynamics and bass extension over the 207E, and for many listeners have adequate HF response to avoid the need for tweeters, but of course YMMV. FE127E in small ( i.e. 4-5 liters) work quite well for surrounds- made from plywood, they can be light enough to hang from walls/soffits with brackets.
If you keep the powered woofer you mentioned in the initial post, getting enough low frequency response should not be much of an issue - but placement for smooth distribution throughout the listening area might be.
While not all music is as carefully engineered to use a real center channel location, when using the surround processor for music, you could still gain benefits of image stability over a wider range of listening locations.
As for selecting tweeters to match with full range drivers, there are more factors to consider than just the relative sensitivities between drivers - such as integration of their dispersion patterns at the anticipated main listening location. In addition, 2 of the mentioned items cost significantly more than even the 207E, then there's the not necessarily minor cost of associated passive XO components.
If you keep the powered woofer you mentioned in the initial post, getting enough low frequency response should not be much of an issue - but placement for smooth distribution throughout the listening area might be.
While not all music is as carefully engineered to use a real center channel location, when using the surround processor for music, you could still gain benefits of image stability over a wider range of listening locations.
As for selecting tweeters to match with full range drivers, there are more factors to consider than just the relative sensitivities between drivers - such as integration of their dispersion patterns at the anticipated main listening location. In addition, 2 of the mentioned items cost significantly more than even the 207E, then there's the not necessarily minor cost of associated passive XO components.
With that amplifier i would be fearful of how the Fostex will ruthlessly reveal its shortcomings. If i were you i would be considering something less efficient.
As to combing, with a pair of small drivers this is not likely the problem it is made out to be. Toole talks about combing in some detail in his book. Althou it looks terrible on a graph it turns out that the ear/brain expects it and it is not nearly as sonically degrading as has been theorized in the past (backed up by some reseach). Recent experiements with EL70 and FF85KeN tend to bear this out.
To this end i would recommend checking out CHR-70 or EL70, doubles for the front and singles (or splayed doubles) for the back (i have a specific surround speaker for the CHR-70 based on what Toole says ready to be released shortly). Either would be a better match for your amplification
Both these drivers are available from Germany or directly from Mark in Hong Kong.
dave
too many choices for someone new like me. I am not familiar with the speakers we are talking about,i mean i have never listned to them to be able to decide. However checking markaudio, is this the site for these speakers? i have found the Alpair 10! is this a 10 cm driver? Although expensive, if i couple 2 of these for each channel in series because i dont want to drop below 3 ohms if coupled in parallel, they will hopefully be good without tweeters. and they can fit in thinner towers. are they better sounding then fostex? am a little lost here in regards of what to choose.
The Mark Audio drivers sound different than the Fostex. Unfortunately the new A7, A12 are not on his website. EL70 is an OEM unit made for CSS (Creative Sound Solutions). I understand A6 & A10 are in very short supply and likely due for a redesign based on the advances made with EL70, CHR-70 and then A7/A12.
Usually the 4 ohn drivers are connected in series. I'd be somewhat leary of running 2 of the bigger drivers, and my personal preference is for the smaller drivers (i've yet to hear A7/A12, but have all the rest). The EL70 is a paper cone and the others are all Mark's propritary aluminum alloy. There is a family resemblance, particularily thru the metal cone drivers.
dave
Usually the 4 ohn drivers are connected in series. I'd be somewhat leary of running 2 of the bigger drivers, and my personal preference is for the smaller drivers (i've yet to hear A7/A12, but have all the rest). The EL70 is a paper cone and the others are all Mark's propritary aluminum alloy. There is a family resemblance, particularily thru the metal cone drivers.
dave
Well if I try to brainstorm a little bit. The whole idea of my questions is that I felt the need for some "Quality" audio experience, it started by getting the Pioneer receiver and the energy speakers with the HTPC. Now i have the energy satellites that claim to accept 20 to 100 watts of amplifier power, i wonder how this is compared to other speakers?. They have 3.5 inch drivers with a tweeter. I can say they have crisp sound.
Anyhow I needed a better experience, and to work on a small project. Now with the mark audio speakers, I will most probably need to connect more then one speaker per channel to get a better thrill because of the size of the driver and power rating. Now with the 207E it is another story, i have the feeling that larger (good quality of course) drivers tend to say something more although my room doesn’t need that at the time.
If i opt for connecting more then one driver, the fostex with high sensitivity in series i.e. 16ohm load, might give (as I "imagine") some promising results if comb filtering was not an issue or at least did not come up to be an issue. Nevertheless I am still speaking of series of 2x 167e or even 207e or am i taking it too much further?. I mean although this room is housing the speakers now but maybe in the future I will move to a larger room (possibility). I am thinking loudly here 🙂 The larger drivers are tempting but not "good looking" in "small" spaces. A question came to my mind, if for whatever reason you need to connect two full range speakers in series in one tower, what is usually the distance between them inside the tower?
A note: I do agree mind wise with what chrisb has said.
Anyhow I needed a better experience, and to work on a small project. Now with the mark audio speakers, I will most probably need to connect more then one speaker per channel to get a better thrill because of the size of the driver and power rating. Now with the 207E it is another story, i have the feeling that larger (good quality of course) drivers tend to say something more although my room doesn’t need that at the time.
If i opt for connecting more then one driver, the fostex with high sensitivity in series i.e. 16ohm load, might give (as I "imagine") some promising results if comb filtering was not an issue or at least did not come up to be an issue. Nevertheless I am still speaking of series of 2x 167e or even 207e or am i taking it too much further?. I mean although this room is housing the speakers now but maybe in the future I will move to a larger room (possibility). I am thinking loudly here 🙂 The larger drivers are tempting but not "good looking" in "small" spaces. A question came to my mind, if for whatever reason you need to connect two full range speakers in series in one tower, what is usually the distance between them inside the tower?
A note: I do agree mind wise with what chrisb has said.
My current none DIY setup except HTPC
Well to better describe my home theatre area and current (sorry to say) 😱 non DIY equipment (except for HTPC, i build it piece by piece).
I will show now the home theatre room and open space next to it and equipment. the corresponding images are for current front lcd tv and satellites and place for the new DIY towers, open space area next to the 14 m2 room, the surround satellites place, the amplifier (up to 192Khz sampling, HD format audio, ultra thx), htpc(everything full high definition capable with blue ray and audio HDMI out), dvd, cable tv, and DVB-S2 PC receiver,
I have carefully done the setup, i really need to make nice looking towers, anyhow i am using help of the carpenter who made the TV stand that you are going to see, i designed it with him myself and chosen the colors, spacing, etc.
Well to better describe my home theatre area and current (sorry to say) 😱 non DIY equipment (except for HTPC, i build it piece by piece).
I will show now the home theatre room and open space next to it and equipment. the corresponding images are for current front lcd tv and satellites and place for the new DIY towers, open space area next to the 14 m2 room, the surround satellites place, the amplifier (up to 192Khz sampling, HD format audio, ultra thx), htpc(everything full high definition capable with blue ray and audio HDMI out), dvd, cable tv, and DVB-S2 PC receiver,
I have carefully done the setup, i really need to make nice looking towers, anyhow i am using help of the carpenter who made the TV stand that you are going to see, i designed it with him myself and chosen the colors, spacing, etc.
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This definitely looks like a room where less (smaller drivers/enclosure type) could give you more (flexible placement options, and better overall balance)
Regardless of the driver/ enclosure designs you finally settle on, the room has what would appear to be rather schizophrenic acoustic properties, that may need treatment to resolve, or resignation and adaption. (the brain is very capable in that regard - witness marriages that last as long as mine 🙄)
The primary listening position on the forward facing couch will be very much in the near field, and as much as I am fan of several of the Fostex drivers discussed so far in this thread, it's not been my experience that they ameliorate the sonic signature of solid state electronics, and you might well be served by considering other types.
The first that come to mind are the Mark Audio CHR70 or (CSS) EL70 for the surrounds, and the Alpair12 for front row. These have excellent tonal balance, can work well in fairly small enclosures, particularly when assisted by subwoofer(s), and exhibit a more laid back presentation than the Fostex - a trait which could benefit your case. The only issue might be the ability of your amp(s) to comfortably handle multiple channels of 4 ohm impedance - the only HT receiver I've personally used (mid range Denon) was rated at 6 ohms or higher when all 5 channels driven. (mind you, I never could get domestic acceptance for location of surrounds, so it was never tested to it's limits)
Regardless of the driver/ enclosure designs you finally settle on, the room has what would appear to be rather schizophrenic acoustic properties, that may need treatment to resolve, or resignation and adaption. (the brain is very capable in that regard - witness marriages that last as long as mine 🙄)
The primary listening position on the forward facing couch will be very much in the near field, and as much as I am fan of several of the Fostex drivers discussed so far in this thread, it's not been my experience that they ameliorate the sonic signature of solid state electronics, and you might well be served by considering other types.
The first that come to mind are the Mark Audio CHR70 or (CSS) EL70 for the surrounds, and the Alpair12 for front row. These have excellent tonal balance, can work well in fairly small enclosures, particularly when assisted by subwoofer(s), and exhibit a more laid back presentation than the Fostex - a trait which could benefit your case. The only issue might be the ability of your amp(s) to comfortably handle multiple channels of 4 ohm impedance - the only HT receiver I've personally used (mid range Denon) was rated at 6 ohms or higher when all 5 channels driven. (mind you, I never could get domestic acceptance for location of surrounds, so it was never tested to it's limits)
chrisb,
Regarding my receiver (which is rated at 140 watts into 8 ohm, i had mistakengly said 150) has on its back a rating from 6ohm to 16ohm, and from reviews, i concluded that it can run 4 ohms and even lower especially that it is thx ultra certified. now of course it is better with 6 ohm and higher.
I didnt get if it is good that i have such shape room or not good, but i got the impression that it is good and nice sound from your words.
my best setup would be smaller then 8 inch speakers for front towers but more then one driver in the tower although most dont approve of mutliple drivers for comb effect.
I can tell you the receiver that i have has automatic equalizing features (standing wave, speaker distances, full phase control, etc. )... the sound i am getting from the current setup was envied by many of my friends but they are not experts. even an older very low end multimedia PC speakers but very neatly done and powerfull (Bose Shape) were good sounding in this room. when i sit in the sweet spot currently, i hear the sound so concentrated as if it is emanating from inside my head and not the speakers. (I dunno if this is good). i have to note that the HTPC is the main playing source, so DVDs, Blue Ray, MP3s, Audio CDs, are played from there and they are processed through a well known HD card, so everything is somehow highly sampled and resampled at 96Khz to 192 Khz for HD content)
The only problem i am having is that i dont have or maybe it is difficult to find) good drivers around me in shops. There are some unknown branded chinese pro loudspeakers (i know there are some hi end chinese but not available directly to me), and there are brands like Davis (which might be good, because they have some nice looking 5 inch drivers but they usually put them in a 2 way or 3 way towers, i can get those. i have seen their manufacured towers and they are very slim to look at, so i thought of those as well (just because i might be able to get their drivers).
other then that i might need to wait till i travel to usa to order some Mark speakers. Currently the AL12 on mark site is not online for sale, they have the smaller drivers. i have my brother in law traveling to china soon, would that help. but i dont want to bother him with extra weight, each extra kilo is for 20 dollars on the plane (long story) 🙂
I cannot emphasize the good quality of sound i am already getting. but i am only needing a little bit more power presence sound from the surround drivers, mainly the front end. the sub is fine (300Watts powerd, 1200 watts dynamic), and the rears are already too near to the main sitting area.
but what about my current satellites, why do they say 20 to 100 watts, what is the real wattage they are giving? my amp volume goes from -80dB to +12dB, and when at 0dB i feel the satellites are at their highest and saturated, if the song is a little higher i might feel they are overdriven, their best powered sound is at -3dB volume almost to 0dB.
Regarding my receiver (which is rated at 140 watts into 8 ohm, i had mistakengly said 150) has on its back a rating from 6ohm to 16ohm, and from reviews, i concluded that it can run 4 ohms and even lower especially that it is thx ultra certified. now of course it is better with 6 ohm and higher.
I didnt get if it is good that i have such shape room or not good, but i got the impression that it is good and nice sound from your words.
my best setup would be smaller then 8 inch speakers for front towers but more then one driver in the tower although most dont approve of mutliple drivers for comb effect.
I can tell you the receiver that i have has automatic equalizing features (standing wave, speaker distances, full phase control, etc. )... the sound i am getting from the current setup was envied by many of my friends but they are not experts. even an older very low end multimedia PC speakers but very neatly done and powerfull (Bose Shape) were good sounding in this room. when i sit in the sweet spot currently, i hear the sound so concentrated as if it is emanating from inside my head and not the speakers. (I dunno if this is good). i have to note that the HTPC is the main playing source, so DVDs, Blue Ray, MP3s, Audio CDs, are played from there and they are processed through a well known HD card, so everything is somehow highly sampled and resampled at 96Khz to 192 Khz for HD content)
The only problem i am having is that i dont have or maybe it is difficult to find) good drivers around me in shops. There are some unknown branded chinese pro loudspeakers (i know there are some hi end chinese but not available directly to me), and there are brands like Davis (which might be good, because they have some nice looking 5 inch drivers but they usually put them in a 2 way or 3 way towers, i can get those. i have seen their manufacured towers and they are very slim to look at, so i thought of those as well (just because i might be able to get their drivers).
other then that i might need to wait till i travel to usa to order some Mark speakers. Currently the AL12 on mark site is not online for sale, they have the smaller drivers. i have my brother in law traveling to china soon, would that help. but i dont want to bother him with extra weight, each extra kilo is for 20 dollars on the plane (long story) 🙂
I cannot emphasize the good quality of sound i am already getting. but i am only needing a little bit more power presence sound from the surround drivers, mainly the front end. the sub is fine (300Watts powerd, 1200 watts dynamic), and the rears are already too near to the main sitting area.
but what about my current satellites, why do they say 20 to 100 watts, what is the real wattage they are giving? my amp volume goes from -80dB to +12dB, and when at 0dB i feel the satellites are at their highest and saturated, if the song is a little higher i might feel they are overdriven, their best powered sound is at -3dB volume almost to 0dB.
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The rated power should be more than adequate for whatever speaker solution you arrive at, but don't assume that a "THX certification" means the amp can safely be operated outside of the manufacturer's rated operating range of impedance loads
I'll repeat again, that the effective listening area of the room is probably not suited to multiples of drivers larger than 6", or even dual drivers of those sizes in the front row.
If the rears are already too near to the main listening area, how would replacing/upgrading them resolve that issue?
At extreme clipping levels, the amp's output looks close to a square wave and contains many orders of harmonics of signal content, at full power - it's the higher order of these harmonics that wreak havoc on the drivers, most notably tweeters first, then overheating of any XO padding resistors, then smoke of many colors and aromas.
If you find that the current system sounds overloaded or saturated at any particular displayed output level, that's a good sign as to when to stop.
of course, none of this answers your ongoing questions
I'll repeat again, that the effective listening area of the room is probably not suited to multiples of drivers larger than 6", or even dual drivers of those sizes in the front row.
If the rears are already too near to the main listening area, how would replacing/upgrading them resolve that issue?
Let's keep it simple and say that speakers don't "give wattage" - that type of rating for any speaker doesn't mean much at all, except that with less power than the lower number they'll likely not sound particularly dynamic or full bodied, and at high SP levels can in fact be more easily damaged than with a higher powered amp.
At extreme clipping levels, the amp's output looks close to a square wave and contains many orders of harmonics of signal content, at full power - it's the higher order of these harmonics that wreak havoc on the drivers, most notably tweeters first, then overheating of any XO padding resistors, then smoke of many colors and aromas.
If you find that the current system sounds overloaded or saturated at any particular displayed output level, that's a good sign as to when to stop.
of course, none of this answers your ongoing questions
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