Hi. This is my first post so please go easy on me 😛
Iv built all my speakers myself to date, each one has been of better quality than the last.
I produce EDM and also DJ a bit, so love the deep bass of EDM and all associated sounds.
My system at the moment is two full range cabs, 12inch Eminence Delta 12A running with a pair of unknown horn tweeters.
passive XO at about 1500 for the tweeter.
and a very narrow slot port tuned on Hornresp to approx 80hz and (EQ) crossed at 80-100hz.
my sub was a bit of an experiment, of which i think i failed, its two "DJTECH" branded 15inch drivers in a common horn one on each side feeding a common mouth. on Hornresp i had attempted to tune it to about 60-80 hz peak as a kick type bass but they distort pretty hard at that level so im forced to cross them off as low as the amp can go to make them make any sort of usable noise. which also usually means making the Deltas push bass as well. which generally reduces my overall volume.
basically, i want to know if its worth my time building a pair of la scala cabs to put in another unknown pair of 15inch drivers into just to fill the gap between my 12s and current 15s.
i also have yet another unknown pair of 10inch drivers sitting waiting for cabs.
i have been considering ripping the horn apart and rebuilding a new pair of scoops or something for the current 15s...
im just not sure what i should do. the Deltas are already in an optimum cab, they sound really nice, smooth and crisp, i just need/want more kickbass and sub bass.
please help, i am well and truly open to suggestions.
expected audience would normally be outside but also some inside venues, and be between 20-100 people.
if it helps, i am in love with the sound normally heard at raves so thats what im looking for with my setup on a slightly smaller scale.
and i have 2x400w and 4x300w channels available.
Thanks in advance guys
Iv built all my speakers myself to date, each one has been of better quality than the last.
I produce EDM and also DJ a bit, so love the deep bass of EDM and all associated sounds.
My system at the moment is two full range cabs, 12inch Eminence Delta 12A running with a pair of unknown horn tweeters.
passive XO at about 1500 for the tweeter.
and a very narrow slot port tuned on Hornresp to approx 80hz and (EQ) crossed at 80-100hz.
my sub was a bit of an experiment, of which i think i failed, its two "DJTECH" branded 15inch drivers in a common horn one on each side feeding a common mouth. on Hornresp i had attempted to tune it to about 60-80 hz peak as a kick type bass but they distort pretty hard at that level so im forced to cross them off as low as the amp can go to make them make any sort of usable noise. which also usually means making the Deltas push bass as well. which generally reduces my overall volume.
basically, i want to know if its worth my time building a pair of la scala cabs to put in another unknown pair of 15inch drivers into just to fill the gap between my 12s and current 15s.
i also have yet another unknown pair of 10inch drivers sitting waiting for cabs.
i have been considering ripping the horn apart and rebuilding a new pair of scoops or something for the current 15s...
im just not sure what i should do. the Deltas are already in an optimum cab, they sound really nice, smooth and crisp, i just need/want more kickbass and sub bass.
please help, i am well and truly open to suggestions.
expected audience would normally be outside but also some inside venues, and be between 20-100 people.
if it helps, i am in love with the sound normally heard at raves so thats what im looking for with my setup on a slightly smaller scale.
and i have 2x400w and 4x300w channels available.
Thanks in advance guys
a Karlson 15" (K15/1951) coulper although somewhat less sensitive than La Scala has more punch - even a K12 loaded with pym1298 (~kappa12a) has more punch - I usually run a slotted waveguide tube on top as the sound is more natural than most horn.
- I'm not sure if a Karlson would blend well as a filler. With a strong motor/low moving mass 15" or 18" a K15 size coupler starts rolling off in half space right below 60Hz - but its cone motion is very low at high outputs.
here's one of my Peavey FH1 outdoors - its ~two cubic foot larger in bulk than La Scala - loud but heavy and punchless. I biamped two FH1 in my little living room with 2-18" R-J vented refex and one K15 had better sound.
Two-Karlson K15 (IIRC with Omega 15) are providing the bottom in my friend's PA setup
- I'm not sure if a Karlson would blend well as a filler. With a strong motor/low moving mass 15" or 18" a K15 size coupler starts rolling off in half space right below 60Hz - but its cone motion is very low at high outputs.
here's one of my Peavey FH1 outdoors - its ~two cubic foot larger in bulk than La Scala - loud but heavy and punchless. I biamped two FH1 in my little living room with 2-18" R-J vented refex and one K15 had better sound.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Two-Karlson K15 (IIRC with Omega 15) are providing the bottom in my friend's PA setup
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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as best known its a coupled-cavity speaker whose front chamber has a tapered opening and was developed around the best coaxial 15" speakers of its day. From what I understand, John Karlson and Wayne Green completed the prototype in the summer of 1951.
here's the plan from the January 1954 issue of Radio & Television News for the 15" version - it takes about one sheet of 3/4" plywood
http://www.gainclone.com/K15.PNG
there's a meandering forum hosted by Gregg Baker where we try to figure out things
http://gainclone.com/Karlson/index.php?board=1.0
sine-wave testing isn't necessarily relevant to music reproduction - but here's a one on one two-tone modulation evaluation comparison of Beta15cx in a reflex the size of the Karlson's rear chamber and tuned to 50Hz (K15's apparent Fb) to K15
-there's a 10dB reduction in sidebands with the Karlson coulper.
and when I say "apparent" Fb, near-field measurement of K15's cone at the center will show a 37Hz null -why -I'm not sure
- its like its doing something to limit cone motion down to that frequency better than a reflex tuned to 50.
this thread will probably be moved to another forum as "fullrange" in this case denotes use of single-wideband drivers
I brought up the Karlson as it can be used imo for a kickbin - plus they can sound great with single drivers -lol
here's the plan from the January 1954 issue of Radio & Television News for the 15" version - it takes about one sheet of 3/4" plywood
http://www.gainclone.com/K15.PNG
there's a meandering forum hosted by Gregg Baker where we try to figure out things
http://gainclone.com/Karlson/index.php?board=1.0
sine-wave testing isn't necessarily relevant to music reproduction - but here's a one on one two-tone modulation evaluation comparison of Beta15cx in a reflex the size of the Karlson's rear chamber and tuned to 50Hz (K15's apparent Fb) to K15
-there's a 10dB reduction in sidebands with the Karlson coulper.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
and when I say "apparent" Fb, near-field measurement of K15's cone at the center will show a 37Hz null -why -I'm not sure
- its like its doing something to limit cone motion down to that frequency better than a reflex tuned to 50.
this thread will probably be moved to another forum as "fullrange" in this case denotes use of single-wideband drivers
I brought up the Karlson as it can be used imo for a kickbin - plus they can sound great with single drivers -lol
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yea i wasnt sure where to put it, i figured anything above sub is more full than bass... if it gets moved thats also fine.
so do any of the parameters need to be changed if i was to run one with a ten and one with a fifteen? (on each side)
i noticed there is a port in the design, how important is that to the function/sound reproduction?
and do the "curtains" affect the way it sounds if different curves are used?
and can they be layed on thier side and stacked up ? or do they get stacked next to each other?
thanks for the quick help
ive just found the "single sheet TH challenge" thread. im up to page 5 out of 100+ so i think theres bound to be plenty of usable info in there to go towards creating a solid, easy/cheap to build cab with comparable simulated results.
i really like the look of the Cubo15 and on paper it has the frequency range i feel im missing.
i reckon i could replace my big sub with two, and then build another two with my other 15s in them. and then all i need is a cab to put my 10s in.
i really like the look of the Cubo15 and on paper it has the frequency range i feel im missing.
i reckon i could replace my big sub with two, and then build another two with my other 15s in them. and then all i need is a cab to put my 10s in.
Cubo15/Tham15 and jbell's single sheet tapped horn should all be good and may replace your big cabinet and save ya some weight to drag around. The port is important on the 15" Karlson cabinet and its first spec. is 4.5"x9" - -the "wings" could be changed in certain cases and probably to a tighter initial flare. Its a good cabinet per plan and produces clean bass with about 1/3 the excursion of a reflex and less distortion than the horns I own. The wings will bend and to reduce losses must be braced on Karlson-coulpers. Dowel rods make good tie point from the wings to the edge of the front shelf in K15. I've watched them bend even on sealed rear chamber couplers.
unless things have changed drastically in last 5 years I would recommend to use with the big boys use which is reflex boxes , in only a few of the systems I have seen have been horn loaded. and the only time it sounded good was with a double 6 stack of cerwin vega horns. I partied for about 20 years and it was very rare to see anything but bass reflex speakers. also on prosound forums they recommend using bass reflex as well , but that's only if youre doing trance or any 4 on the floor style beats. me personally I love horns.🙂
thats interesting you recommend reflex but then say you love horns? could you help by sharing some basic pros/cons about reflex vs horn?
i was thinking horn just for the fact that 90% of raves iv been to had horns, and i just fall in love with the systems everytime i hear one again. theres just something about the sound projection of a horn. it just hits you. like its been thrown at you instead of just handed to you.
i was thinking horn just for the fact that 90% of raves iv been to had horns, and i just fall in love with the systems everytime i hear one again. theres just something about the sound projection of a horn. it just hits you. like its been thrown at you instead of just handed to you.
I've probably missed something here, but when you designed these cabinets I assume you measured the TS parameters of the woofers used and used that to design your cabs?
for the Deltas yes. for the subs, not so much. no one can seem to find the T/s params for them. so iv got two pairs of different 15inch PA drivers, 2 subs, 2full range, and also 2x10inch woofers, all without T/s params. 🙁
the 15s are all about 250-300wrms and all 8ohm, but thats all i can tell you about them. i could probably go as far as measuring a resonant frequency but that would involve cutting open my sub cab as when i put them in, i was only prepared to remove them if i were to destroy the cab as it was just a trial thing, never meant to be permanant.
the 15s are all about 250-300wrms and all 8ohm, but thats all i can tell you about them. i could probably go as far as measuring a resonant frequency but that would involve cutting open my sub cab as when i put them in, i was only prepared to remove them if i were to destroy the cab as it was just a trial thing, never meant to be permanant.
the stupid thing about the sub unit, is it sounds massive standing on end in a corner, its almost like it just needs the horn path lengthened to make it sound good, also works if i lean it up to a wall.
in open air on the ground, it just seems to disappear unless ur sitting in it..
in open air on the ground, it just seems to disappear unless ur sitting in it..
Actually I love to listen to my music through any type of system, though there is a special place for horns with me. About 20 percent of my sub boxs are horns the rest base reflex. I don't own a 5 ton truck so its easier for me to move my single and double 18's.
Because of reduced horn mouth areas you normally have to use more units so they couple and reproduce the lower frequencies. With a br optimally tuned they already play lower, but they're not as efficient.
I personally would love to have a bunch of 12" horn loaded enclosures that could be easy to pack and caryy and modular so I could scale to the size of venue/ crowd.
Because of reduced horn mouth areas you normally have to use more units so they couple and reproduce the lower frequencies. With a br optimally tuned they already play lower, but they're not as efficient.
I personally would love to have a bunch of 12" horn loaded enclosures that could be easy to pack and caryy and modular so I could scale to the size of venue/ crowd.
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so can i read into that as you saying to go ahead with the single sheet Jbell horns and to keep building them till i have enough sound?
imo judging from a living room perspective a single B&C 15TRX40 in a reflex just flaps in the wind compared to a 15" size Karlson-coupler loaded with 15" or 18" woofer/coax - its not always the graph Lf extension that's important. Due to mobility factors my horn experience is very limited and just to what's laying around (Klipschorn, Edgarhorn Monolith & hypex 100, EV-Sentry, FH1, front load 50Hz horn with JBL 12, Yorkville UCS1) 37Hz is great extension for Jbell's little TH. Which page of that huge tread has the best drawing and cut sheet? - I might have a friend build one and do a comparison to K15
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post #39 has the cut sheet.
thanks for your input too, im in love with the sound of a bass horn. absolutely.
i have decided (from chatting with Jbell himself) that i will build (to start with) a pair of his SS15 cabs and just throw in a pair of my drivers until i can afford a pair of KappaPro 15lf2's.
if they surpass my expectations, of course more will follow! if theyre as small and light as they look, ill be able to build 6 before they equal my single sub for bulk+weight. and well n truly out perform it tenfold.
i could build a standard rectangle box and mount my 15s in that. but then when i can afford to replace the drivers with the kappas then id have to build the horns anyway..
so in a way, by building the cabs first, ill be killing two birds with one stone. kinda.... id rather build the good ones first.
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