Olson Corner Horn
Was just looking at the linked page and wondering if they are quaint old antiques or actually competitive with more modern designs.
In a room with hard walls where space is at a premium would they be worth considering for use from say something like 600-700Hz down with a suitable horn on top for everything higher? (With a different woofer)
Intuition says the LF would sound sluggish or transient soft/indistinct at lower frequencies and perhaps hard to integrate with the HF system. But then again Olson knew what he was doing. So, great for the time but now dated ? . . .or still viable? Anybody know anything about them?
Thanks
Was just looking at the linked page and wondering if they are quaint old antiques or actually competitive with more modern designs.
In a room with hard walls where space is at a premium would they be worth considering for use from say something like 600-700Hz down with a suitable horn on top for everything higher? (With a different woofer)
Intuition says the LF would sound sluggish or transient soft/indistinct at lower frequencies and perhaps hard to integrate with the HF system. But then again Olson knew what he was doing. So, great for the time but now dated ? . . .or still viable? Anybody know anything about them?
Thanks
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I have only a limited experience with backloaded horns (a Hedlund horn with Lowther DX2, the mouth is quite undersized) and while the bass is not too low, it is definitely not sluggish, more like snappy and fast. I tend to believe the theory that says that the "fast" bass experience is actually a matter of higher frequencies that match the bass timing wise - so most probably with DSP crossover for matching the delays and a little EQ, it should be pretty good. My horn definitely benefits from filling the lowest bass with a subwoofer - only one was enough to make me happy in my small listening room.
There is nothimg wrong with the concept or the folding topology.
You need a set of corners to support them, and i would use a modern modeler to fine tune the dimensions for whatever driver you choose.
dave
You need a set of corners to support them, and i would use a modern modeler to fine tune the dimensions for whatever driver you choose.
dave
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Hmm, didn't get notification that you two had responded. Thanks!
By modern modeler, do you have specific recommendations?
By modern modeler, do you have specific recommendations?
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Well, I certainly couldn't ! : )
Can Hornresp do such a complicated enclosure?
I'm interested in this horn as I have a 15" driver that the only program I know how to use right now - BBpro - says is only suitable for a sealed box (suggested 3.5cu ft.) , but playing with it it starts to look good vented in a very large box, like 20 -30 cu. ft.
I have no illusions of being knowledgeable but it seems to me that the Olson horn might look like a very large ported box to a driver.
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The drawings in your first link show you the gist of it. The thing with a corner horn is folding it to fit it in that space.
A corner waveguide on the other hand with the driver facing back into the corner (there are other ways to do it) is not unusual and is much simpler in the folding scheme. Your work goes into preserving the higher frequency response around the bends.
So I'd ask you what importance is horn loading to you?
A corner waveguide on the other hand with the driver facing back into the corner (there are other ways to do it) is not unusual and is much simpler in the folding scheme. Your work goes into preserving the higher frequency response around the bends.
So I'd ask you what importance is horn loading to you?
Is it complicated? or is it a simple horn that has been folded? So, you might get some more resonances to work out. Decide how important it is to incorporate any folding scheme you consider.
Importance? Well that's a word I wouldn't use here, but let's say with a horn on top from 750Hz up, efficiency is one consideration.
If used, it is important that the bottom end is not by nature boomy or laggy. I tried the standard back loaded horns of years ago and never found them more than novelties - the sound from the horn exit like it was drifting out of a drainpipe.
Phase is certainly a question too. Can the two ever be well enough aligned without code?
If used, it is important that the bottom end is not by nature boomy or laggy. I tried the standard back loaded horns of years ago and never found them more than novelties - the sound from the horn exit like it was drifting out of a drainpipe.
Phase is certainly a question too. Can the two ever be well enough aligned without code?
I posted that a while back. I always wanted to build it but too many projects. If Bill Woods of Acoustic Horns and Oswald Mill is still accessible he may have better plans...
I assume you mean without FIR processing? Anyway the answer is yes, it can be done. Smooth phase goes along with a smooth response, which you want to happen in the room.
I assume you're concerned about resonances in the horn folds? They shouldn't be an issue below some frequency.
Have you ever used the multiple sub set up technique?
Yes, I meant any kind of digital processing.
Yes resonances but also concerned with slow bass out the back loaded horn and getting LF reasonably together with output from the ≥ 750Hz horn.
Multiple sub? No not yet. Never used even a single sub. Always old style conventional stereo. If not full range then LF woofer from bottom to mid in 2 or 3 way.
Yes resonances but also concerned with slow bass out the back loaded horn and getting LF reasonably together with output from the ≥ 750Hz horn.
Multiple sub? No not yet. Never used even a single sub. Always old style conventional stereo. If not full range then LF woofer from bottom to mid in 2 or 3 way.
Funny thing, just the other day I was browsing in Toole's great book ("3rd" edition) and he posted curves for the famous Olson dual-concentric driver, with some approval. Never heard one or ever seen a word posted about it, despite the fame.
For bass, unless your horn can go pretty low (Klipsch, for example), not much value trying to get the horn dividends today (efficiency, distortion, dispersion...). Waste of time. Having said that, Klipsch is certainly the greatest bass I've ever had, although needs sub-sub for lowest notes.
B.
For bass, unless your horn can go pretty low (Klipsch, for example), not much value trying to get the horn dividends today (efficiency, distortion, dispersion...). Waste of time. Having said that, Klipsch is certainly the greatest bass I've ever had, although needs sub-sub for lowest notes.
B.
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I think there's something to be said for the simplicity of the single driver BLH. However, the opportunity is lost to time align the front and rear waves but if the XO is low enough maybe that's not such an issue.
I have a pair of K-Horns, these are essentially two-way and I have a DSP for time alignment. I haven't done enough to compare the with and without time alignment to comment on the subjective benefit.
I use them in my HT system (partly because this is the only place they will fit in my home) and they do well but I do still use a sub.
I have a pair of K-Horns, these are essentially two-way and I have a DSP for time alignment. I haven't done enough to compare the with and without time alignment to comment on the subjective benefit.
I use them in my HT system (partly because this is the only place they will fit in my home) and they do well but I do still use a sub.
Obviously, time aligning a 15-foot Klipsch horn with stan-alone mids is the biggest timing challenge imaginable. My observations, and seconded by others, is that time-alignment in that scenario makes a small difference but not a big improvement.
I have "time alignment" in my list of stuff that sounds great to the engineering mind-set but in practice doesn't matter much. (3D vision and metaverse in the same list.)
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Very interesting observation bentoronto, because if the time alignment is not that beneficial when there's a large misalignment like this, then it also bodes well for BLH's in general and it also means that passive solutions for K-horn XO's are an option for all but the very critical.
Can I ask if you have any other advice/observations regarding K-horns (perhaps PM if it's too off-topic here)
Can I ask if you have any other advice/observations regarding K-horns (perhaps PM if it's too off-topic here)
The largest Klipsch horn I'm aware of is the Jubilee which has its own active DSP crossover.
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There are very few of these highlt regarded classics out there. I heard and saw a pair in my youth when i could not appreciate them. I think ZenMod has some.
dave
In my short note about aligning a Klipschorn bass to stand-alone mids, I was referring to exactly that.
Sorry I can't be any help because so long ago that I am hazy on the details. Hard to know apriori what's the proper timing for a wrapped-up horn in a corner but I might have used summative signal strength or titrated my Behringer DSP or fished for best sound. In any case, didn't seem to matter much for a 130 Hz XO with real sharp slopes even with trick test tones.
But rather a fool's errand, I'd say, to imagine there are point sources out there that you can align..... Major direction of audio these days seems to be good room sound which leads to bipolar speakers and, at long last, considering room acoustics to be part of speaker building (the news hasn't come to this forum yet)*.
B.
Clearly, Toole's Spinorama tries to integrate room sound with speaker design
Just interested in how likely it is that the Olson corner horn is universal enough in its abilities that it will work (well) in more than a purpose built room.
I'll pose the question more straightforwardly. Will a back loaded corner horn like the Olson appear to the driver much the same as a very large vented box?
I'll pose the question more straightforwardly. Will a back loaded corner horn like the Olson appear to the driver much the same as a very large vented box?
15-foot unfolded length? That's a very big Klipschorn 🙂.
It is interesting that in his classic 1941 paper, Paul Klipsch considered his corner horn design to have a length of just 40 inches:
"The horn of Fig. 1 has an actual mouth opening of 570 square inches and a horn length of approximately 40 inches".
Yep. Big indeed !
The 45"H x 45"D x 22.5" W FLH Labhorn design only has about a 8-9ms path....(longest horn i've personally built & worked with.)
I am 1000% convinced that is the simple truth behind "fast" bass......which comes from a full-range response, in time/phase across the spectrum.
I've had no problem getting the Labhorns with their 8-9ms path length, to sound just as tight, just as "fast", as sealed subs.
Using the same main speakers, sitting on the different subs.
All it takes is correctly dialing in delay (approx 8-9ms) on the main speaker, when using the Labs ....(and proper xover work of course)