Hey all, after a many year break from building speakers, i had a listen to my neighbor's setup (not DIY, pair of Pure Audio Project open baffles with a beyma AMT tweeter and dual Morel 10" woofers) and i've caught the bug again, hard... And after listening to some Mono records being played on a pair of speakers and falling in love, i'm going to build a mono speaker to see what it's like.
I've never experimented with full-range drivers before and decided that's where i'm gonna start this time. So was just wanting to fish for some recommendations on drivers to start with/look at.
Going to go OB. Would love to do everything >250hz with a full range driver. But can't decide if i should go 3 or 4" full range and try to get it down to 250hz-ish and cross to bigger driver to get me down to 100hz or so where i'd then cross to dipole W-frames (because i've never tried an W frame and want to try it). OR if I should just go for a 8" full range and run it as low as i can get away with, cross to the W-frames where i can get away with it.
So I'm looking for A) some ideas of full range drivers to consider B) what do you guys think small full range or big?
Also, i'm willing to spend up to about $150 for the main full range driver, but i personally get a lot of satisfaction from using budget parts (the thought of using a Fostex FF85WK for <$50 makes me happy but it's unclear to me how low i can run it)
Oh, and everything will be active with crossovers and any EQ applied via an older minidsp 2x4. My listening tastes are mainly jazz and acoustic music.
thanks a bunch in advance for any ideas, comments, or suggestions!!
I've never experimented with full-range drivers before and decided that's where i'm gonna start this time. So was just wanting to fish for some recommendations on drivers to start with/look at.
Going to go OB. Would love to do everything >250hz with a full range driver. But can't decide if i should go 3 or 4" full range and try to get it down to 250hz-ish and cross to bigger driver to get me down to 100hz or so where i'd then cross to dipole W-frames (because i've never tried an W frame and want to try it). OR if I should just go for a 8" full range and run it as low as i can get away with, cross to the W-frames where i can get away with it.
So I'm looking for A) some ideas of full range drivers to consider B) what do you guys think small full range or big?
Also, i'm willing to spend up to about $150 for the main full range driver, but i personally get a lot of satisfaction from using budget parts (the thought of using a Fostex FF85WK for <$50 makes me happy but it's unclear to me how low i can run it)
Oh, and everything will be active with crossovers and any EQ applied via an older minidsp 2x4. My listening tastes are mainly jazz and acoustic music.
thanks a bunch in advance for any ideas, comments, or suggestions!!
Last edited:
The classic save choice is the Visaton B200 (125€ here in Europe). It's an 8" often used in combo with (a pair) of Emminence Alpha 15A woofers. But most fullrange with a medium to high qts can work i think. How low depends on the graphs (and how real they are). Those, if done following the standard, are done on infinite baffles, so no boxloading neighter. And for Ob, the size of the driver is in general bigger than in a box for the same tuning. Many even prefer 10 or 12" fullrange drivers for this. For woofers you need a high qts, preferable above 0.7, to let them work without a box.
My favourite style of jazz is hard bop. I love the energy, drive and musicianship of small group acoustic music. Go big is my advice. I have the 15" Fane full range with a 15" Fane bass driver and they total 1700 sq cm per side. Instruments sound life size with effortless dynamics. NA distributer for Fane is Solen.ca.
Not so long ago I was in the same situation, looking to try an OB but not wanting to pay a fortune for it.
Fortunately I had an Alpair 7.3 already so that just left the woofer.
I´m in europe and if you would have been too I´d have suggested 2x Visaton WS25E per side and a fullranger to your taste.
I ended up with a chinese A&D R1524, similar to Eminence. (A lot of people say it´s better but I haven´t heard the Eminence)
I´ve read a lot about the Goldwood woofers, which is a "cheap" choice in the US:
Saw an 18" Goldwood combined with an Alpair 7.3 (Bob Brines?).
The FF85K is a favourite of lots of people having tried them on an open baffle with some Eminence 15".
See here : [URL="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjk3734kOzsAhURLewKHcNpC7oQFjAAegQIARAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quarter-wave.com%2FOBs%2FOB_Design_Part_2.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1oanId5f0Y4XYRf4QyW6ID"]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjk3734kOzsAhURLewKHcNpC7oQFjAAegQIARAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quarter-wave.com%2FOBs%2FOB_Design_Part_2.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1oanId5f0Y4XYRf4QyW6ID[/URL]
See here for another nice "cost-effective" design:
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project
This design changed from Peerless-woofer to Goldwood later on.
Lots of infos here, incl. passive crossover. Unless you go active, then your choices are pretty broad of course when it comes to drivers.
Fortunately I had an Alpair 7.3 already so that just left the woofer.
I´m in europe and if you would have been too I´d have suggested 2x Visaton WS25E per side and a fullranger to your taste.
I ended up with a chinese A&D R1524, similar to Eminence. (A lot of people say it´s better but I haven´t heard the Eminence)
I´ve read a lot about the Goldwood woofers, which is a "cheap" choice in the US:
Saw an 18" Goldwood combined with an Alpair 7.3 (Bob Brines?).
The FF85K is a favourite of lots of people having tried them on an open baffle with some Eminence 15".
See here : [URL="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjk3734kOzsAhURLewKHcNpC7oQFjAAegQIARAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quarter-wave.com%2FOBs%2FOB_Design_Part_2.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1oanId5f0Y4XYRf4QyW6ID"]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjk3734kOzsAhURLewKHcNpC7oQFjAAegQIARAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quarter-wave.com%2FOBs%2FOB_Design_Part_2.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1oanId5f0Y4XYRf4QyW6ID[/URL]
See here for another nice "cost-effective" design:
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project
This design changed from Peerless-woofer to Goldwood later on.
Lots of infos here, incl. passive crossover. Unless you go active, then your choices are pretty broad of course when it comes to drivers.
Last edited:
I built something like this: Endorphine from Kingston Kitchen
But I used a 12" from old Yamaha organs as mid plus a tweeter. Not full range I know, but they play really well. Deep bass in a rather small room even.
But I used a 12" from old Yamaha organs as mid plus a tweeter. Not full range I know, but they play really well. Deep bass in a rather small room even.
Actually I wanted to link to this page and not just one of the documents:
OB Theory
Highly recommended reading to give you an idea.
I would start with the choice of woofer.
How much bass do you need? Active crossover incl. EQ? should be an early question too.
How much baffle/size can I cope with, H-Frame, U-Frame, looks?
I say that because I have H-frames with 15"-chassis that work wonderfully but make my living room look like a rehearsal room so next up is probably a narrow baffle with lots of EQ. (that said, the H-frame already has some EQ)
Here´s another with the Fostex FF85K:
Jim Shearer's Fostex FF85K and Eminence Alpha 15A Open Baffle Speaker
Unfortunately crossing over at 250Hz will be tough with that driver so eventually you want to reconsider that!?
And btw, a 3" down to 250Hz on OB is not going to happen.
Unless you put you ear right up to the driver. But sitting on a couch, a reasonable distance from the speaker.... Nope.
Unless you put you ear right up to the driver. But sitting on a couch, a reasonable distance from the speaker.... Nope.
thanks for the comments so far. I'm thinking about this now:
top end - Dayton PS220, Visaton B 200, or Wild Burro Betsy on a flat panel whose width matches the width of the W-frame below
bottom end - 2x MCM 55-2974 15" in a W-frame
thoughts?
top end - Dayton PS220, Visaton B 200, or Wild Burro Betsy on a flat panel whose width matches the width of the W-frame below
bottom end - 2x MCM 55-2974 15" in a W-frame
thoughts?
Sounds good to me. I'd offer caution with the older miniDSP, as I had a not so good experience on the top side of the xover with mine. Seemed to be OK for the bottom, but I'd do the top cutoff some other way, not running the signal through it.
Think of what's happening there. Your analog signal gets chopped back up into bits and after processing, they're reconstructed into 4 outputs for your high and low pass. If you're digital to begin with, you'd really, really like to avoid going back and forth through that whole process again. If you're analog source, now you're digital and the purity of that format is lost.
Just hate to see any of that be attributed to the OB, or the top driver you ultimately choose. I think I have a fine top driver, which I believe out-resolves any signal I can afford to put into it. That's how you want your speakers.
Think of what's happening there. Your analog signal gets chopped back up into bits and after processing, they're reconstructed into 4 outputs for your high and low pass. If you're digital to begin with, you'd really, really like to avoid going back and forth through that whole process again. If you're analog source, now you're digital and the purity of that format is lost.
Just hate to see any of that be attributed to the OB, or the top driver you ultimately choose. I think I have a fine top driver, which I believe out-resolves any signal I can afford to put into it. That's how you want your speakers.
Do you mean the newer versions are better because you actually compared them? Or is it your theory?
Curious cause I do have the old version with lower sampling rate
I only had experience with the older one. If the new Minis act as a 4 output, crossover configurable DAC (i.e. plugs into your source using toslink or USB) - my theory is that's a step in a better direction.
I'm currently using the Zoudio product which takes a digital stream (via BT), does the high and low pass via DSP and provides 4 power amplifier outputs. Only 40 WPC though - and I'm probably using 2 / 5 watts at normal listening levels.
Just as an example of a digital in - DSP cross-overed 4 analog output (to speakers, in my case) setup. If I was a vinyl guy, I'd do it in all analog using a board kit with the L-R op-amp filters.
I'm currently using the Zoudio product which takes a digital stream (via BT), does the high and low pass via DSP and provides 4 power amplifier outputs. Only 40 WPC though - and I'm probably using 2 / 5 watts at normal listening levels.
Just as an example of a digital in - DSP cross-overed 4 analog output (to speakers, in my case) setup. If I was a vinyl guy, I'd do it in all analog using a board kit with the L-R op-amp filters.
I've used all sorts of FR drivers as the top end of a 2-way OB speaker.
Wild Burro, SABA greencone, Grundig, Voice of Music, Peerless, FaitalPro, Hemp acoustics and more that I don't remember. All have their strengths and weaknesses, and it can be fun to build a baffle where you can easily swap out different drivers in sizes from 3" to 8".
I like the small drivers 3-4" but they usually work best high passed at 500-800Hz on OB. If you want to play it down to 250Hz, then a 6" or 8" would be a better choice. 6" might be the sweet spot.
Wild Burro, SABA greencone, Grundig, Voice of Music, Peerless, FaitalPro, Hemp acoustics and more that I don't remember. All have their strengths and weaknesses, and it can be fun to build a baffle where you can easily swap out different drivers in sizes from 3" to 8".
I like the small drivers 3-4" but they usually work best high passed at 500-800Hz on OB. If you want to play it down to 250Hz, then a 6" or 8" would be a better choice. 6" might be the sweet spot.
Ok, thanks Joe.
As far as I know, the new ones have a higher sampling rate and then of course there is the digital in and digital out mini-dsp so you can do the conversion with higher quality DACs and ADCs. so you avoid one conversion which is probably a good step but need more equipment..
I actually do think about making an active crossover one day in the analog realm. Simple enough to make a PCB for it and I already planned it but it's not very flexible of course...
One beauty of a DSP. You set it up and measure in a couple of minutes until you're happy. You just don't what you actually lose with all these conversion..
Ok, sorry to get a little off topic here.
As far as I know, the new ones have a higher sampling rate and then of course there is the digital in and digital out mini-dsp so you can do the conversion with higher quality DACs and ADCs. so you avoid one conversion which is probably a good step but need more equipment..
I actually do think about making an active crossover one day in the analog realm. Simple enough to make a PCB for it and I already planned it but it's not very flexible of course...
One beauty of a DSP. You set it up and measure in a couple of minutes until you're happy. You just don't what you actually lose with all these conversion..
Ok, sorry to get a little off topic here.
Although I've read nothing but good things about the dayton ps220 I find it's QTS a little too low and in combination with the relatively low xmax not sufficient. You can eq the bass response but will run out of xmax and thus SPL very quickly. That is unless you use 4 per side and then it gets unnecessarily expensive.
Depending on how much SPL you need I'd opt for 2x10", 1x12" or 1x15" at least. The 830669 (2x830668) seem much more suitable to me or the aforementioned Goldwood speaker, eminence and many others.
Depending on how much SPL you need I'd opt for 2x10", 1x12" or 1x15" at least. The 830669 (2x830668) seem much more suitable to me or the aforementioned Goldwood speaker, eminence and many others.
I presume you mean if you wanted to run the P220 alone with no supporting woofer to cover the lower octaves? Or do you mean that you feel like getting down to 250hz might still be a challenge with it?
and If I went with the P220, do you guys think run it (with EQ) A) to 250hz-ish and cross to Wframe woofers B) try to run it down to 100-150hz and cross to W frame woofers or C) run it down to 250Hz-ish, cross to a 10 or 12" woofer (maybe something like those peerless SLS mentioned) down to 80Hz-ish and then cross to W-frame woofers?
Last edited:
nevermind, i answered my own question. Seems like if i go for a 16 or 18" baffle i won't need a ton of dipole compensation to be able to get down to 150hz and then cross to the dipole woofer there. For simplicity sake that seems the most appealing option for me.
Santiu, excuse me, I assumed you wanted to used a fullrange down to 250Hz (ideally) and use the PS220 for everything below that as woofer. My bad.
It´ll play down to 250Hz just fine!
There´s other nice options out there which are cheaper if you want but yeah, that one will do nicely.
So my remarks were actually all about the <250Hz department...
I´d guess with even one 830669 (because you can EQ) you´d have plenty of bass, even in a normal baffle with maybe "tiny" wings.
(see Pano´s link above; I know it´s a long thread;-))
The construction you choose will dictate what the max. crossover point is.
With H-frames for example you´ll get resonances that have to be filtered out and thus you can´t use it say up to 500Hz.
So if you want a W-frame consider that maximum usable frequency
or just start off with a simple baffle.
It´ll play down to 250Hz just fine!
There´s other nice options out there which are cheaper if you want but yeah, that one will do nicely.
So my remarks were actually all about the <250Hz department...
I´d guess with even one 830669 (because you can EQ) you´d have plenty of bass, even in a normal baffle with maybe "tiny" wings.
(see Pano´s link above; I know it´s a long thread;-))
The construction you choose will dictate what the max. crossover point is.
With H-frames for example you´ll get resonances that have to be filtered out and thus you can´t use it say up to 500Hz.
So if you want a W-frame consider that maximum usable frequency
or just start off with a simple baffle.