Hi Jason,
Allow me to add a few comments to Chris' post above.
Frankly I don't see why you only offered to update our current amplifiers. A common-mode choke on the output wiring and some other subtle changes will not work miracles. I can pretty much predict that the RFI will be reduced somewhat but that the amplifiers won't sound much different than before. Hence the outcome of our evaluation will most likely be similar to what we've concluded now.
You say that your Reference 9 is a far better design and that it has received an 'Amplifier of the year Award', so why don't you send a pair of those? I'd honestly would love to be blown away, as described in other reviews in printed and online magazines; I'd certainly welcome such an experience. And, which seems to be a big issue with you, this is a currently shipping product, hence the review would be more worthwhile to prospective buyers of the Reference 9.
So to summarize things:
- You criticize me for reviewing a no longer available product, yet you refuse to send me a currently shipping product for review.
- The update that's applicable to the Reference 8 is mostly targeted to reduce the RFI output; hence it won't change a mediocre performer into a jaw-dropping one.
- You claim the Reference 9 is leaps and bounds above the 'old' Reference 8 we've looked at but will not send me a Reference 9 to verify this.
All in all I think it is clear I'm not 'out to get NuForce' I am however providing some counterbalance, or a reality check, to the hyped up advertising and reviews we've all seen and heard about these amplifiers.
In the end it comes down to a single claim you keep making: I've tested an old and obsolete product, the new product is performing much better.
So why don't you send me a pair of Reference 9 amplifiers so I can verify this?
It is useless to repeat the exercise with an updated Reference 8, as you say they're no longer in stock and hence obsolete, so why waste time and money? Rest assured that the same battery of tests will be run on the Reference 9, under the same conditions, if not, I'm sure my readers will lynch me in public.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Allow me to add a few comments to Chris' post above.
Frankly I don't see why you only offered to update our current amplifiers. A common-mode choke on the output wiring and some other subtle changes will not work miracles. I can pretty much predict that the RFI will be reduced somewhat but that the amplifiers won't sound much different than before. Hence the outcome of our evaluation will most likely be similar to what we've concluded now.
You say that your Reference 9 is a far better design and that it has received an 'Amplifier of the year Award', so why don't you send a pair of those? I'd honestly would love to be blown away, as described in other reviews in printed and online magazines; I'd certainly welcome such an experience. And, which seems to be a big issue with you, this is a currently shipping product, hence the review would be more worthwhile to prospective buyers of the Reference 9.
So to summarize things:
- You criticize me for reviewing a no longer available product, yet you refuse to send me a currently shipping product for review.
- The update that's applicable to the Reference 8 is mostly targeted to reduce the RFI output; hence it won't change a mediocre performer into a jaw-dropping one.
- You claim the Reference 9 is leaps and bounds above the 'old' Reference 8 we've looked at but will not send me a Reference 9 to verify this.
All in all I think it is clear I'm not 'out to get NuForce' I am however providing some counterbalance, or a reality check, to the hyped up advertising and reviews we've all seen and heard about these amplifiers.
In the end it comes down to a single claim you keep making: I've tested an old and obsolete product, the new product is performing much better.
So why don't you send me a pair of Reference 9 amplifiers so I can verify this?
It is useless to repeat the exercise with an updated Reference 8, as you say they're no longer in stock and hence obsolete, so why waste time and money? Rest assured that the same battery of tests will be run on the Reference 9, under the same conditions, if not, I'm sure my readers will lynch me in public.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Poking around their site was interesting. Check out Terms and Conditions of sale. I've never bought a piece of audio equipment before that required a lawyer to decode.
Isn't that very American?
Universalism
The "Terms of Use" page found on commercial web sites is seen as excessively bureaucratic to most Europeans.
Anyway, here's my 2¢:
I think NuForce is very worthy of being amp of the year. I have only one problem, the price. With today's technology, there's no reason for an amp to cost more than $1,000. Well, there is. But then we enter the world of designer clothes and luxury cars. Then it's all about status. This I have no problem with. But it won't win any amp, or anything else, of the year award.
For the same reason I would name the Sonic Impact T-amp the amp of the history of the world. Any $30 amp that gets mentioned in the same sentence as the $90,000 Ongaku is my kind of amp. Ah, progress.
I have started to second-guess myself. It's the price thing.
I first read about the NuForce at 6 moons. It wasn't a very favorable review. But I still think they do something right, had they only cut the prices in half.
Really, what alternatives are there? The Sonic Impact. Some small makers like Bottlehead. But the old dinosaurs out there that were something decades ago and now are charging for a brand name? "You want an amp to go with that Benz of yours?"
I first read about the NuForce at 6 moons. It wasn't a very favorable review. But I still think they do something right, had they only cut the prices in half.
Really, what alternatives are there? The Sonic Impact. Some small makers like Bottlehead. But the old dinosaurs out there that were something decades ago and now are charging for a brand name? "You want an amp to go with that Benz of yours?"
Most likely due to the NuForce marketing hype being so far over the top that it raises the suspicions of anyone familiar with audio electronics design. If you check their technology page on the NuForce website, you get these statements:
Now I'm admittedly a bandwidth junkie, but frankly 50kHz isn't exactly an impressive number. I'm strictly an amatuer designer and I have three or four home-brew amplifiers that hit 200kHz ruler flat, and I know of many commercial amplifiers that go well beyond 50kHz.
Great spec, and one I know to be true because I've measured it, but completely irrelevant once you add the series impedance of more than a coupe of inches of speaker cable.
That's some mighty nasty mud slinging! Considering the arena NuForce wants their amplifiers to compete in, its also complete rubbish. There are many audiophile grade amplifiers that produce less than 0.01% THD at high watt output levels. I have one homebuilt amp that measures less than 0.01% THD at 50 watts, and another that is less than 0.05% at 150 watts.
Again a completely false statement. In my home built amplifiers I achieve less than 5° phase shift at 20kHz, and with one I get less than 15° phase shift out to 100kHz. There are numerous commercial amplifiers that better these specs too.
Please note that I am only attacking NuForce's marketing material, not their product. I've listened to and measured the performance of the NuForce Reference 9 (and no it wasn't the 9.02), and for its price it sounded very good, and its measured performance was typical for commerical audiophile amplifiers in that price range, with the exception of the high frequency hash that all digital amps I've played with to date have had. But I wouldn't call it a giant killer, and I've heard better, and for that matter I have built better.
My two cents.
Terry
phn said:
So what is it that you think they've done right? Can you tell us? Trust me that's a loaded question.... I wouldn't answer it if I were you.
The price is seriously reasonable "if" it performed to the expectations which they set for themselves, on every forum from here to Taiwan.
They seem to have come up short in a few key areas such as reliability, EMI, sound (it cant' sound decent with such high EMI, no way, did someone say high frequency hash?? I bet it rains!). I've heard nothing at all as to how they've improved upon any of this in later versions, what I have heard recently thanks to Sander's review isn't the way to address high EMI at the source, and I share his sentiments on their "fix". Then you have the link posted by Alain...doesn't sound like they've begun to fix it enough.
If you want overpriced, look at Halcro.
You can't really compare a Sonic Impact with a Nuforce or any other. It's like a Chev Cavaliar against a Dodge Viper.
If I had to award an "amp of the year" for class d I'd without doubt award that to Sonic Impact, and I never heard one. As highly as I think of UCD, the Sonic Impacts were a cheap foot in the door for people to try DIY class d, or class d in general, and alot of projects were done with it. So because of reduced cost making it more widely available and giving so many their first taste of class d magic it easily wins.
Now for amp of the century there's but one contender.... who has brilliant designs with unmatched reliability, extremely low EMI, excellent support/service, above par sound in the worst possible implementation, and a rather upfront and honest approach. They even take the time to deal with us DIY chumps. Some lead, and some follow. I'll let you figure out who it is.
Anyway, if you looked into this review /award based marketing monopoly, you'll find alot more to disgust yourself with than a price which is actually rather reasonable.
metalman, I agree.
classd4sure, I don't like to single out companies. But let's talk value for money. Let's talk shoddy business. Linn sells or sold a PC with a Linux OS for $20,000 under the name of Knekt Kivor! Explain for me how that is not a rip-off. Then you can explain how Linn's sideshow act of demonstrating the Sondek's superiority to the useless SP-10 Mark I, which even diehard DD fans hate, makes Linn any different from NuForce or any other audio manufacturer. (That doesn't even include the snake oil industry.)
NuForce evidently doesn't do everything right. But I would feel a lot less stupid paying $1,500 for a very good amp than paying $20,000 for a brand name.
And yes I can compare the Sonic Impact to anything in audio. If you can get all this for $30, what justification for existing does a high-price amp that's not significantly better have?
classd4sure, I don't like to single out companies. But let's talk value for money. Let's talk shoddy business. Linn sells or sold a PC with a Linux OS for $20,000 under the name of Knekt Kivor! Explain for me how that is not a rip-off. Then you can explain how Linn's sideshow act of demonstrating the Sondek's superiority to the useless SP-10 Mark I, which even diehard DD fans hate, makes Linn any different from NuForce or any other audio manufacturer. (That doesn't even include the snake oil industry.)
NuForce evidently doesn't do everything right. But I would feel a lot less stupid paying $1,500 for a very good amp than paying $20,000 for a brand name.
And yes I can compare the Sonic Impact to anything in audio. If you can get all this for $30, what justification for existing does a high-price amp that's not significantly better have?
I've seen people spend at least 1K on modding their SI projects, what you get for $30 is a mediocre chip in a joke of a shell.
You can compare them to anything you like, they're still just entry level.
You can compare them to anything you like, they're still just entry level.
Well, there are people who still live in the 1930s and use mediocre tubes. I much rather live in the now. I find it a lot more interesting.
classd4sure said:
Got me there.
Actually, I would love to see something like the Yamamoto A08 be the Amp of the Year. Perhaps not the A08 since the low power makes it useless for most people (including myself).
Nu Force test by Soundstage
Dear Mr. Saxon,
Interesting review but I have one question. All this stuff about the IEC power cord affecting the sound. Please answer just one question. The power cord is a two conductor circuit (Same as you loudspeaker circuit). The power co. generates a three phase signal, transmits it over long distances at high voltage-low current lines and then steps it down at the local stations where it passes through transformers, relays etc and then is sent to your hone/office generally in 3 phase again. Once in your home/office the phases are split up to different circuits which feed the various outlets. This is then terminated in a traditional 3 pin American socket of essentially low current capacity. Please compare an American plug-socket combo to those used by most European nations (and my home country of South Africa). We use plugs that have pins for the Live and Neutral of about 9mm diameter and the ground pin is thicker at about 12mm. Those can carry serious current and we operate at 220-240v so current is 50% anyway.
So the 120v power has been transmitted over many miles, passed through untold number of devices, reaches your flimsy wall plug and then 2-3 metres of some fancy overpriced power cord magically transforms the sound (or affects it). This "sounds" like black magic to me or just plain sales pitch.
How does this work? An example here. If I see it correctly you can wire your speakers with say #16 zip cord and length about 3 metres (10'). OK sounds good and then you can splice into this speaker circuit say 50mm (2") of some fancy speaker cable as thick as your arm and made of pure silver Litz wire and what you tell me is that this extra bit of cable will change the sound. This defies all engineering and physics.
Yours truly,
Stephen Mantz
Dear Mr. Saxon,
Interesting review but I have one question. All this stuff about the IEC power cord affecting the sound. Please answer just one question. The power cord is a two conductor circuit (Same as you loudspeaker circuit). The power co. generates a three phase signal, transmits it over long distances at high voltage-low current lines and then steps it down at the local stations where it passes through transformers, relays etc and then is sent to your hone/office generally in 3 phase again. Once in your home/office the phases are split up to different circuits which feed the various outlets. This is then terminated in a traditional 3 pin American socket of essentially low current capacity. Please compare an American plug-socket combo to those used by most European nations (and my home country of South Africa). We use plugs that have pins for the Live and Neutral of about 9mm diameter and the ground pin is thicker at about 12mm. Those can carry serious current and we operate at 220-240v so current is 50% anyway.
So the 120v power has been transmitted over many miles, passed through untold number of devices, reaches your flimsy wall plug and then 2-3 metres of some fancy overpriced power cord magically transforms the sound (or affects it). This "sounds" like black magic to me or just plain sales pitch.
How does this work? An example here. If I see it correctly you can wire your speakers with say #16 zip cord and length about 3 metres (10'). OK sounds good and then you can splice into this speaker circuit say 50mm (2") of some fancy speaker cable as thick as your arm and made of pure silver Litz wire and what you tell me is that this extra bit of cable will change the sound. This defies all engineering and physics.
Yours truly,
Stephen Mantz
re. MOER's posting
I would normally agree with Moer's analysis on power cable sensitivity. However many audiophiles seem to have A/B cables and found some sound metter than other - see that thread on HTForum.com
The truth may be in the quality of the more constant ohmic contacts of better cable, every thing else being equal up to the AC socket.
Placette audio sells expensive passive volume controls as passive preamps, which use "bulk foil" resistors. His business is based on audiophiles capable of telling the difference between his passive pre-amp and a simple potentiometer.
There're more to the sea than meets the eye.
I would normally agree with Moer's analysis on power cable sensitivity. However many audiophiles seem to have A/B cables and found some sound metter than other - see that thread on HTForum.com
The truth may be in the quality of the more constant ohmic contacts of better cable, every thing else being equal up to the AC socket.
Placette audio sells expensive passive volume controls as passive preamps, which use "bulk foil" resistors. His business is based on audiophiles capable of telling the difference between his passive pre-amp and a simple potentiometer.
There're more to the sea than meets the eye.
never mind the megabuck expensive cabling....
Open up your nice device connected with the gold braided diamond equipped cable and check the last few cm of copper from your transformer to the IEC.
This is where it could matter, because it's inside your (hopefully) faraday casing doing its bad electromagnetic deeds on all your fine electronics?
Open up your nice device connected with the gold braided diamond equipped cable and check the last few cm of copper from your transformer to the IEC.
This is where it could matter, because it's inside your (hopefully) faraday casing doing its bad electromagnetic deeds on all your fine electronics?
I'm not sure power cords really matter unless you've selected too small a gauge and a choking it off.
I'm using a fairly hefty power cable and I can plug the ampinto a $3 power bar or directly into the wall socket, back and forth at will while the thing keeps playing and there's just zero difference whatsoever. No, I didn't upgrade the outlet, no, I didn't upgrade the wiring in the building....no, I don't sell power cords.
I'm using a fairly hefty power cable and I can plug the ampinto a $3 power bar or directly into the wall socket, back and forth at will while the thing keeps playing and there's just zero difference whatsoever. No, I didn't upgrade the outlet, no, I didn't upgrade the wiring in the building....no, I don't sell power cords.
You know I can't for the life of me work out why the question of powercords making a sonic difference should be so controvertial.
And, oh no not another "the last 3 feet can't make a difference" argument! Well in the context of an amplifier it is clear that the rectification of AC to DC is an electrically noisy process with rf generated to boot! And please do some research on this before disputing it, there is plenty of research out there.
How is this relevant to power cords? Well the powercord acts as an antenna and "broacasts" rf riding on the AC into the air and as well as back thru the mains socket and from there into the cabling,circuitry and power supplies of other equipment.
There are other possible explanations including the presence of
electrical resonances in the power cord caused by mismatched impedances between the cord and its termination which will vary depending on the cords construction and materials.
Does this prove power cords make a sonic difference? No. BUT at least there are some technically feasible explanations out there for what many people, myself included, hear.
Regards,
Rob.
And, oh no not another "the last 3 feet can't make a difference" argument! Well in the context of an amplifier it is clear that the rectification of AC to DC is an electrically noisy process with rf generated to boot! And please do some research on this before disputing it, there is plenty of research out there.
How is this relevant to power cords? Well the powercord acts as an antenna and "broacasts" rf riding on the AC into the air and as well as back thru the mains socket and from there into the cabling,circuitry and power supplies of other equipment.
There are other possible explanations including the presence of
electrical resonances in the power cord caused by mismatched impedances between the cord and its termination which will vary depending on the cords construction and materials.
Does this prove power cords make a sonic difference? No. BUT at least there are some technically feasible explanations out there for what many people, myself included, hear.
Regards,
Rob.
classd4sure said:
Just recently I changed the power cord of a DVD player to the largest guage size I could get for $3, the puch improved significantly. Other areas changed sonically but I didn't realy sit shown and figure out what changed. So it seems how much difference a power cord change would make depends on power supply design of the equipment.
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