Hi,
I don't know, all those review mag awards seem to come rather cheaply and .... compared to what, by who.... doesn't mean a thing to me. So the french are rude but they like le produit Américain... seriously.
I'd be more impressed to know what they've done, if anything, to address the issues they've been having. Does anyone know if they've given that information?
Regards,
Chris
I don't know, all those review mag awards seem to come rather cheaply and .... compared to what, by who.... doesn't mean a thing to me. So the french are rude but they like le produit Américain... seriously.
I'd be more impressed to know what they've done, if anything, to address the issues they've been having. Does anyone know if they've given that information?
Regards,
Chris
I've only ever heard one Nuforce amp last year, can't remember the model but it didn't do anything for me I'm afraid
classd4sure said:
Maybe the RF leak is a factor in the sound quality of the NuForce amplifiers.
When the RF issue is addressed, in a similar fashion IcePower and UcD have addressed it, such as increase the dead time, maybe the sound wouldn't as good🙄
Maybe NuForce amps sound better because of the trade-off between switching at 500kHz (vs 400kHz of IcePower and UcD) and higher vs increasing rise and fall and dead times for low RF, but then getting lower resolution.
Dieu seul le sait? (That for the Canadians heheh, en Anglais "only god knows")
)
😀
Hi,
Seems like a few presumptions in that reply. One of which being Nuforce sounds better, maybe another being ICEpower and UCD having addressed high EMI by slowing down the gate signals and increasing dead time.
You'd have to agree there's _many_ other factors that come into play when it comes to high EMI, and how to fix it properly. Deadtime does not necessarily define switching frequency, slew rate of the signals does not necessarily define deadtime, though both may impose an upper limite on it.
Tripath switches from say 700kHz to 1MHz, does it automatically sound better than UCD, I doubt it even comes close.
Also I've found high EMI is absolutely detrimental to good sound quality, and probably far more so than a 500kHz switching frequency. I've heard it said Nuforce only sounds good at very low power... (EMI), has that changed?
That said high EMI is but one problem they were known to have, there were a few others which led to reduced reliability as well. I know some were understood and fixed while others remained a mystery, and it's hard to determine what's what when that kind of information comes in the form of a review magazine interview partial quotes, which is the only place I've seen anything like it so far.
While I've no doubt Nuforce is appreciative of these awards that seemingly keep being thrown in their lap, people here aren't so easily fooled as one might think.
Nuforce has some potential, but they've got serious competition in the land of class D that don't rely on "awards" and "reviews" to get their products out, but sound engineering and the word of mouth of alot of happy users, which is an award I don't see Nuforce having.
Regards,
Chris
Seems like a few presumptions in that reply. One of which being Nuforce sounds better, maybe another being ICEpower and UCD having addressed high EMI by slowing down the gate signals and increasing dead time.
You'd have to agree there's _many_ other factors that come into play when it comes to high EMI, and how to fix it properly. Deadtime does not necessarily define switching frequency, slew rate of the signals does not necessarily define deadtime, though both may impose an upper limite on it.
Tripath switches from say 700kHz to 1MHz, does it automatically sound better than UCD, I doubt it even comes close.
Also I've found high EMI is absolutely detrimental to good sound quality, and probably far more so than a 500kHz switching frequency. I've heard it said Nuforce only sounds good at very low power... (EMI), has that changed?
That said high EMI is but one problem they were known to have, there were a few others which led to reduced reliability as well. I know some were understood and fixed while others remained a mystery, and it's hard to determine what's what when that kind of information comes in the form of a review magazine interview partial quotes, which is the only place I've seen anything like it so far.
While I've no doubt Nuforce is appreciative of these awards that seemingly keep being thrown in their lap, people here aren't so easily fooled as one might think.
Nuforce has some potential, but they've got serious competition in the land of class D that don't rely on "awards" and "reviews" to get their products out, but sound engineering and the word of mouth of alot of happy users, which is an award I don't see Nuforce having.
Regards,
Chris
Oh please, I am currently putting two NuForce Reference 8 mono-blocks through their paces and am measuring them front to back with an AP. Generally I'm stumped that these things get credited soo much as I really am NOT impressed, not by their performance or musicality nor by the measurements. But expect a full featured article on my website soon that'll tell you about my findings exactly, with a big announcement thrown in for effect as well, I'm shure it'll rattle quite a few cages.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Just stop reading magazines... If I need new HiFi Equipment, I just check forums for user pro's & contra's. After a while you end up with a pretty good idea what is the right part for you (technically) - then it's off to listening at a local shop to see what sounds right.
Seems like mag reviewers base themselves on the freebies they're getting.
😉
Seems like mag reviewers base themselves on the freebies they're getting.
😉
SSassen said:
Also measure some tube amplifiers and let us know. Typically they don't measure too great, but so many audioholics swear by them, with all the associated headaches of tube rolling and replacement, not to forget weight and heat.
I measured IcePower 1000ASP and the results are different from their published spec. Surprised? heck no, Golden sample gets all the tweaks and screening.
Be also aware AUX25 filter is often needed for measuring switching amps.
I looked at MUETA frequency response and am unimpressed for all the hype they made. Then does it sound good?
Anyone interested in a stereo amp with IcePower 1000ASP in black heavy duty chassis with speaker & RCA connectors and IEC connector?
No products will receive unanimous approval from everyone. But take a look at the scope of the positive reviews coming from online/offline magazines and users. There are more reviews being posted then we have time to link it to our website.
There is no way a tiny company such as Nuforce can manipulate this kind of public endorsement. 🙂. Oh, by the way, HiFi+ is the only magazine that trashes Nuforce and we are not shy from telling anyone about it.
If you haven't heard it, reserve your judgement and give it a try.
Ref 9 (version 9.02) has come a long way 😉
If you don't like how it sounded in your system, we respect your opinion.
Reviewers rarely go out of the way to rave about a product, especially openly stating that it has become their reference system or best thing they heard etc. Yes, they generally avoid trashing a product. But raving reviews do mean something 🙂.
You should check out Chris Martens review on TAS. It is straight to the point.
Off course a final review by your own ear is the one that counts.
There is no way a tiny company such as Nuforce can manipulate this kind of public endorsement. 🙂. Oh, by the way, HiFi+ is the only magazine that trashes Nuforce and we are not shy from telling anyone about it.
If you haven't heard it, reserve your judgement and give it a try.
Ref 9 (version 9.02) has come a long way 😉
If you don't like how it sounded in your system, we respect your opinion.
Reviewers rarely go out of the way to rave about a product, especially openly stating that it has become their reference system or best thing they heard etc. Yes, they generally avoid trashing a product. But raving reviews do mean something 🙂.
You should check out Chris Martens review on TAS. It is straight to the point.
Off course a final review by your own ear is the one that counts.
@nuforce,
Most 'raving' reviews seem to come from people that haven't heard any good class-d amplifier before; for example, the stereophile reviews of the CIAudio amp. Most of the time if they rave about it, it's the first time they heard Class-D.
I wonder, once they understand that modern class-d is something special, they will start to differentiate between several class-d implementations.
I must admit as well, the first class-D I heard was UcD, it was so "different" than class AB, I was sold on it. I'm sure I'd be equally happy listening to ZAPpulse for example. It's the sheer dynamics & control that are a wake-up call for all those used to "normal" class A or AB amplification...
Most 'raving' reviews seem to come from people that haven't heard any good class-d amplifier before; for example, the stereophile reviews of the CIAudio amp. Most of the time if they rave about it, it's the first time they heard Class-D.
I wonder, once they understand that modern class-d is something special, they will start to differentiate between several class-d implementations.
I must admit as well, the first class-D I heard was UcD, it was so "different" than class AB, I was sold on it. I'm sure I'd be equally happy listening to ZAPpulse for example. It's the sheer dynamics & control that are a wake-up call for all those used to "normal" class A or AB amplification...
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/reviews/
Base on the inside look of this Ref 8, it was produced before May 2005 and none of the reviews were base on this version. For the history of Nuforce Ref 8/8b (which has been discontinued but still supported), read Jim Saxon's review on Soundstage (http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20050715.htm).
Subsequently all the Ref 8/8b were updated to version 8.02.
The early Ref 8 had high RFI and the problem was addressed to meet FCC/CE requirement.
We’re a very small company and have been very honest with our customers and reviewers (read Srajan’s review of Ref 9 on 6moons.com) and we conduct our business professionally with integrity. We have reviews from all over the world. In every forums, Nuforce has become the most talked about amp (the discussion thread in one forum in Taiwan has grown to more than 58 pages). You can easily find overwhelmingly positive CUSTOMERS posting all over the internet. Sure, some deep pocket manufacturers might influence reviews with ad $ but we do not have such financial resources. And we sure can't influence customers' opinions.
Jason
CEO, NuForce
Base on the inside look of this Ref 8, it was produced before May 2005 and none of the reviews were base on this version. For the history of Nuforce Ref 8/8b (which has been discontinued but still supported), read Jim Saxon's review on Soundstage (http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20050715.htm).
Subsequently all the Ref 8/8b were updated to version 8.02.
The early Ref 8 had high RFI and the problem was addressed to meet FCC/CE requirement.
We’re a very small company and have been very honest with our customers and reviewers (read Srajan’s review of Ref 9 on 6moons.com) and we conduct our business professionally with integrity. We have reviews from all over the world. In every forums, Nuforce has become the most talked about amp (the discussion thread in one forum in Taiwan has grown to more than 58 pages). You can easily find overwhelmingly positive CUSTOMERS posting all over the internet. Sure, some deep pocket manufacturers might influence reviews with ad $ but we do not have such financial resources. And we sure can't influence customers' opinions.
Jason
CEO, NuForce
why is there so much animosity directed at the nuforce people and products? from everything i've seen, they are choosing to operate way out at the edge, leading to some stumbles, but they are open with and supportive of their customers. if you aren't failing, you aren't pushing hard enough.
i've not heard any of the nuforce products, but i applaud their efforts to make something unique. were they behaving dishonestly i'm sure i'd feel differently, but i see no evidence of that. if _you_ don't like their products, consider whether it is a matter of taste or a genuine product problem. reviewing an outdated model and asserting it is representative of current models is rather disingenuous.
bb
i've not heard any of the nuforce products, but i applaud their efforts to make something unique. were they behaving dishonestly i'm sure i'd feel differently, but i see no evidence of that. if _you_ don't like their products, consider whether it is a matter of taste or a genuine product problem. reviewing an outdated model and asserting it is representative of current models is rather disingenuous.
bb
Jason of Nuforce wrote:
AFAIK Sander is quite a fan of class-d amplification in general (like me !). And I do also assume that he was really looking forward to test the Nuforce.
But he was DISAPPOINTED by its performance - i.e. the outcome was NOT caused by bias.
I do also agree that the practical implementation of a class-d amp is not simple and that anyone's "first" might not be a good performer.
So why don't you just lend two samples of the new version to Sander for a review ? I am convinced that they will get a better review if they really are better.
Regards
Charles
AFAIK Sander is quite a fan of class-d amplification in general (like me !). And I do also assume that he was really looking forward to test the Nuforce.
But he was DISAPPOINTED by its performance - i.e. the outcome was NOT caused by bias.
I do also agree that the practical implementation of a class-d amp is not simple and that anyone's "first" might not be a good performer.
So why don't you just lend two samples of the new version to Sander for a review ? I am convinced that they will get a better review if they really are better.
Regards
Charles
Sanders, i agree, nuforce specs aren't wow, and far from wow even (at the moment at least). IMHO, 4000 damping factor = a lot of feedback, why it's cool if freq. corner at 500Hz? Wrong?
May be the sound is really good, maybe, i just wondered -why.
PS: really, how much loop gain at 500hz in this amp?😕
Edited: IMHO, THD vs Power show work of the output switching, which isn't best also. Ok, maybe wrong, again..
May be the sound is really good, maybe, i just wondered -why.
PS: really, how much loop gain at 500hz in this amp?😕
Edited: IMHO, THD vs Power show work of the output switching, which isn't best also. Ok, maybe wrong, again..
Hi Charles, Ivan,
All that NuForce was willing to offer is to update our current Reference 8 amplifiers, I'm currently waiting on a reply from them. From what I've been told this update means the addition of a common-mode choke in the output wiring and the changing out of some of the capacitors on the PCB. I'm sure the common-mode choke will lower the RFI output somewhat, but doubt it'll be alble to offer the >30dB reduction you'll need to meet the strict FCC/CE regulations.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
All that NuForce was willing to offer is to update our current Reference 8 amplifiers, I'm currently waiting on a reply from them. From what I've been told this update means the addition of a common-mode choke in the output wiring and the changing out of some of the capacitors on the PCB. I'm sure the common-mode choke will lower the RFI output somewhat, but doubt it'll be alble to offer the >30dB reduction you'll need to meet the strict FCC/CE regulations.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Hi Jason,
Nuforce has perhaps not greased the palms of reviewers, but has used the internet to generate an unnatural level of interest unwarranted by the technical merits of the actual products.
You must realize in this way you have addressed only a small portion of your world wide audience. Most will believe anything they read, and are more than willing to jump on and ride the wave, regardless of who created it, or how they did it, they're simply content in believing "all those reviews/awards _must_ mean something", and you seem to be thriving on that.
This I think has served you well, and I realize you don't deal with DIY or even want to, yet you must realize by generating this level of publicity you're going to raise a few eyebrows, and some will want more meaningful information to help them decide one way or the other.
Also if you compare your product as being on par with the very best out there, we're certainly going to look into that.
Thanks to Sander we're starting to find out a little bit more. The technical aspects he's brought into question are all valid. You can't really answer that by pointing us to another review and expect us to take you even half seriously; we're a different audience than you've been dealing with. We'd appreciate you addressing these issues in a more meaningful manner, or you may ignore them, and continue on as you have, fully realizing we're not your target audience, but we don't go away.
Do you have anything more to sell your amp on than the level of discussion which you've generated yourselves, the wild claims of it being "the most discussed", unlimited meaningless reviews and awards?
We'd be happy to see it (send Sander a sample of your most up to date product..... what's one more review, or even a bad one that you're not afraid of?)
As per the HDA review it did "appear" biased, but Sander is enthusiastic about his hardware, and has his own writing style.
This audience can read such things more objectively than your target audience might, and I have to tell you, he hasn't shocked any of us with the outcome. All the same it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I suspect your product isn't yet at a level where you can openly discuss the true technical merit of it, but would love to be proved wrong.
Incidentally several attempts at seeding this forum with such propaganda have failed and I hope will continue to. That should tell you something. Also, thanks for distancing yourselves from the Class N marketing thing. I find some respect for you in that action alone.
Best Regards,
Chris
Nuforce has perhaps not greased the palms of reviewers, but has used the internet to generate an unnatural level of interest unwarranted by the technical merits of the actual products.
You must realize in this way you have addressed only a small portion of your world wide audience. Most will believe anything they read, and are more than willing to jump on and ride the wave, regardless of who created it, or how they did it, they're simply content in believing "all those reviews/awards _must_ mean something", and you seem to be thriving on that.
This I think has served you well, and I realize you don't deal with DIY or even want to, yet you must realize by generating this level of publicity you're going to raise a few eyebrows, and some will want more meaningful information to help them decide one way or the other.
Also if you compare your product as being on par with the very best out there, we're certainly going to look into that.
Thanks to Sander we're starting to find out a little bit more. The technical aspects he's brought into question are all valid. You can't really answer that by pointing us to another review and expect us to take you even half seriously; we're a different audience than you've been dealing with. We'd appreciate you addressing these issues in a more meaningful manner, or you may ignore them, and continue on as you have, fully realizing we're not your target audience, but we don't go away.
Do you have anything more to sell your amp on than the level of discussion which you've generated yourselves, the wild claims of it being "the most discussed", unlimited meaningless reviews and awards?
We'd be happy to see it (send Sander a sample of your most up to date product..... what's one more review, or even a bad one that you're not afraid of?)
As per the HDA review it did "appear" biased, but Sander is enthusiastic about his hardware, and has his own writing style.
This audience can read such things more objectively than your target audience might, and I have to tell you, he hasn't shocked any of us with the outcome. All the same it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I suspect your product isn't yet at a level where you can openly discuss the true technical merit of it, but would love to be proved wrong.
Incidentally several attempts at seeding this forum with such propaganda have failed and I hope will continue to. That should tell you something. Also, thanks for distancing yourselves from the Class N marketing thing. I find some respect for you in that action alone.
Best Regards,
Chris
- Status
- Not open for further replies.