in the thread Best DAC is no DAC i promised to start a new thread and please everyone contribute to a constructive process in order to reach the holy grail of audio. we can only do it together.
My idea is to use a dedicated i7 PC with BugHead Emperor (just like Lampizator has done it - SuperKomputer) that uses a DSD PCI card to stream the signal to a DSD noDAC (maybe it should be integrated on the card with tubes for a high level of output). Power sources for the card and noDAC should be some nice batteries or supercaps.
And why not elliminate cables and integrate a nice amp into the PC too, like an A class single ended.
some links:
noUSB idea
"No-Dac" and "No-USB" - Page 2 - DACs & Digital Source / Transport - StereoNET
this PCI card supports DoP but not native DSD, maybe it can serve as inspiration in the process of creating a true DSD PCI card
Audio Dandy - How to enjoy High Resolution Audio
An audio PCI to USB card with battery power
SOtM tX-USBexp Audiophile PCIe to USB Audio Card and mBPS-d2s Intelligent Battery Power Supply | AudioStream
tube DAC with DSD playback without digital processing (1bit PDM direct-to-analogue filter)
so this is a noDAC with tubes?
Exciting NEW Tube DAC coming from UK : VAD-12 DSD
and what does this one do?
Bridge II Network Audio Card | PS Audio
Maybe it is possible to modify an ethernet card accordingly? i dont know.
Common everybody, lets put our heads together and find a solution.
My idea is to use a dedicated i7 PC with BugHead Emperor (just like Lampizator has done it - SuperKomputer) that uses a DSD PCI card to stream the signal to a DSD noDAC (maybe it should be integrated on the card with tubes for a high level of output). Power sources for the card and noDAC should be some nice batteries or supercaps.
And why not elliminate cables and integrate a nice amp into the PC too, like an A class single ended.
some links:
noUSB idea
"No-Dac" and "No-USB" - Page 2 - DACs & Digital Source / Transport - StereoNET
this PCI card supports DoP but not native DSD, maybe it can serve as inspiration in the process of creating a true DSD PCI card
Audio Dandy - How to enjoy High Resolution Audio
An audio PCI to USB card with battery power
SOtM tX-USBexp Audiophile PCIe to USB Audio Card and mBPS-d2s Intelligent Battery Power Supply | AudioStream
tube DAC with DSD playback without digital processing (1bit PDM direct-to-analogue filter)
so this is a noDAC with tubes?
Exciting NEW Tube DAC coming from UK : VAD-12 DSD
and what does this one do?
Bridge II Network Audio Card | PS Audio
Maybe it is possible to modify an ethernet card accordingly? i dont know.
Common everybody, lets put our heads together and find a solution.
The inside of a "classic" PC is inherently noisy (electrically speaking). That is why we have moved away from PCI cards to USB interfaces.
The best way to go about the "No-DAC" seems to be to use a hi-end PC to up-convert everything to DSD256 or higher, to stream this data via ethernet to a little box located on our equipment rack, away from all of the sources of noise, and finally to use a USB to DSD interface.
To build a PCI to DSD card you would need hardware that simply does not exist.
The best way to go about the "No-DAC" seems to be to use a hi-end PC to up-convert everything to DSD256 or higher, to stream this data via ethernet to a little box located on our equipment rack, away from all of the sources of noise, and finally to use a USB to DSD interface.
To build a PCI to DSD card you would need hardware that simply does not exist.
to get rid of the noise you can also use batteries or supercaps to power the PC and to protect the card from EMI you can use some aluminum shielding.
If you want an ethernet card to stream the audio, you still end up with the same problem since the ethernet card is located inside the pc.
but there is no need to use a classic PC, a custom made housing with shielding for the motherboard can be build to diminish the noise
correct me if im wrong and this is not possible...
to invent some cool hardware an engineer like John Swenson would have to start to think the noUSB noDAC way.
Q&A with John Swenson. Part 1: What is Digital? | AudioStream
someone should give this guy a call
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It's not just the processor. Everything inside a PC makes electrical noise.
A PCI card is electrically connected to the rest of the PC, so besides shielding it you'd also have to galvanically isolate it. Just one more thing that noone AFAIK has ever done, and with good reason.
A PCI card is electrically connected to the rest of the PC, so besides shielding it you'd also have to galvanically isolate it. Just one more thing that noone AFAIK has ever done, and with good reason.
how does the Pink Faun I2S Bridge - Computer to DAC Interface solve this problem?or is there no problem since there is no analog noDAC involved?
Pink Faun's card is a digital interface.
It's essentially a sound card without the DAC. So no problems.
It's essentially a sound card without the DAC. So no problems.
OK,so lets put the analog part on cables. I believe you its a bad idea of mine to integrate it into the PC. i was reading in an article how to use an isolator from a ethernet card in SPDIF (an SMD from the card was salvaged) but here i find more sofisticated devices, is this one any good to use with the USB noDAC? GISO - LAN isolator could it be used to clean a DSD signal from the PCI DSD card?
In one sentence you mentioned a "USB noDAC", an Ethernet isolator, and a "PCI DSD card" (I can only assume that you have found such a card).
What exactly are you proposing?
What exactly are you proposing?
Well I am a noob and I am just chatting about the possibilities if I found such a card (it should exist if it is possible to make one).
I also agree with you that at the moment the ethernet streaming to a little box (what would that box be in an ideal case) way is the best (if you dont have a PCI DSD).
maybe the little box and the USB interface in this setup could be omitted if only the ethernet card could send a RAW DSD signal or simulate it? ethernet cards already do put a high frequency signal out. maybe with some modifications and the right drivers an ethernet card would become the PCI DSD card I am looking for???
Any feedback is welcome, even if you think my ideas are stupid.
AFAIK the only possible way to get proper "DSD out" right now is to use a USB to I2S/DSD module.
If you would be OK with DoP, you could also use DoP-enabled s/pdif plus a suitable receiver and decoder.
But AFAIK there exists no PCI card that can do DSD out.
Adapting an Ethernet adapter is not an option. Totally different technology. Plus even if it was possible, you would have to have a relatively long cable (longer than a few cm), which is a very bad idea for a noDAC approach.
If you would be OK with DoP, you could also use DoP-enabled s/pdif plus a suitable receiver and decoder.
But AFAIK there exists no PCI card that can do DSD out.
Adapting an Ethernet adapter is not an option. Totally different technology. Plus even if it was possible, you would have to have a relatively long cable (longer than a few cm), which is a very bad idea for a noDAC approach.
So how short is your cable and how did you implement the noDAC? maybe you can post a few pics please
DSD signals are TTL level high frequency (in the MHz region) signals and thus the shorter the better. It's the same as with I2S signals.
I haven't got around to doing my version of a noDAC yet, but there is a lot of experience amassed in the other thread. The consensus is to keep the DSD lines as short as possible for best results, placing the noDAC circuitry literally next to the source of the DSD stream.
I haven't got around to doing my version of a noDAC yet, but there is a lot of experience amassed in the other thread. The consensus is to keep the DSD lines as short as possible for best results, placing the noDAC circuitry literally next to the source of the DSD stream.
Nope, the noise is simultaneous switching noise... It is generated by the PC working. As to shielding a bigger problem than just a bit of foil.
The isolator you mentioned is also a bit suspect, if you look closely at the Ethernet spec you will see it is differential pair signalling (no ground) and every Ethernet interface has to go through an isolation transformer with common mode chokes. Adding another pair of transformers is not going to do that much... Most isolators are galvanic, this means there is no direct current coupling between the equipment to protect from high voltages etc. it does not automatically mean the noise is isolated, isolating noise is often quire complex and requires special attention to the layout and a thorough understanding of the noise coupling mechanisms.
Due to the nature of DSD the signals should only be transmitted several mm on a PCB for best results, and to avoid adding extra noise with the signal transfer.
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OK, so you are telling me a few mm would be ideal? sounds like it should be integrated right there on the PCB where the DSD signal is being created... but still if the DSD PCI card doesnt exist, then a box with an integrated noDAC at the end of a DSD streaming ethernet cable is the only option to say goodbye to USB according to this website, the chips can also be implemented as PHYcievers on PCI cards, so no USB is necessary xCORE Multicore Microcontrollers and also ethernet audio chips offer many possibilities Networked Audio & Ethernet AVB | XMOS
USB and ethernet signaling protacols and actual physical level signals have been designed from the offset to be transmitted relitavely long distances and off of the PCB. Most other digital signals such as I2S were never meant to be transmitted long distances (long is relative here) but designed to be transmitted on a PCB where the conditions and distances are more benign. So it is always best to use a signal protocol designed to be transmitted for transferring digital data from a to b. If the data is transmitted bit perfect (which is easily achieved these days) then there is no problem and have the conversion to either I2S or DSD near the DAC on the same board where signal integrity can be better controlled.
I will look at the xmos stuff as I am moving soon and want to move away from my current streaming set-up using squeezeboxes as I cant buy anymore and my daughter has lost her box. I use wireless streaming from a basic dedicated PC and have never had any problems, but I want to go hard wired as wireless will be hard to set up reliably in the new house.
I will look at the xmos stuff as I am moving soon and want to move away from my current streaming set-up using squeezeboxes as I cant buy anymore and my daughter has lost her box. I use wireless streaming from a basic dedicated PC and have never had any problems, but I want to go hard wired as wireless will be hard to set up reliably in the new house.
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