As stated in the Thread Title, I have a request to be directed towards information that will be quite useful to use for a situation that is developing in relation to my home, that will be useful for an accommodation to be used as Temporary and then will most likely become a Permanent Audio Space for my system I have built over the past 30+ Years.
As for the Structure, I do intend on having a Concrete Floor poured over a Base of Foam Insulation. The Walls are to be a 2' - 4' (50mm- 100mm) Cavity, constructed from Two Skins of a 2" (50mm) Thick Composite Panel 8' x 4' (2.4mtr x 1.2mtr) Panels made up of Foam sandwiched between very thin metal facia sheets).
The Roof will have an Open Void to the Apex and will extend in height from 8' (2.4mtr) at the Eaves up 12'-14' (3.6mtr - 4.1mtr) at the Apex.
At present the design is to be 16' Wide x 30' Length(4.8mtr x 10mtr), which is ample for a temporary accommodation whilst a house renovation takes place, but can easily be altered to suit a room size for a optimised audio experience.
I have a recollection, that could be incorrect? , that was to suggest a room would need to be over 40' allow for a certain produced frequency to not be interfered with.
The intention was initially to buy in a Temporary accommodation, but the free gift of the Wall materials and ownership of other construction materials will mean a bespoke build can be done to suit a secondary usage, hence this inquiry, the Space will become the Audio and Home Entertainment Space.
I would like to know if the 16' W x 30' L is the dimension to suit what will be come the home for a range of speakers, I would like to have the usage of a Full Range Horn Speakers centred around as the initial plan, using owned Beyma CP 21 > Beyma TPL 150's > Beyma 12P80ND > Eminence Beta 15's.
I have purchased the above drivers for a OB Build which I will complete when the home is dealt with, these are now to be designated to the new space.
I also intend on having a Large DML Panel Speaker produced to be used and the long-term owned Stacked Quad 57's will also be used.
I use Cabinet Speakers in conjunction with Stacked ESL's in the present room treated listening space, of 14' x 13'.
The idea of expanding on the Speaker experience appeals, especially using the Drivers that are already owned, and especially after hearing full range Klipsch Jubilees during last year at my local hifi groups members home.
If time allows, I can build most structures, it is the EE side I am wanting on, but have plenty of support when required.
Getting back to the inquiry:
Do the room dimensions need to be changed to suit the Audio Space Plan?
Can the cavity space be used to support any of the ideas in place to have a selection of Speaker Experiences for myself and visitors?
I have a insulation that can be used to insulate the Cavity, but in doing so I lose the Air Space that might be beneficial to a Speaker Design?
I am hopeful that a guidance will be offered for Room Dimension and a Speaker Design to consider.
As for the Structure, I do intend on having a Concrete Floor poured over a Base of Foam Insulation. The Walls are to be a 2' - 4' (50mm- 100mm) Cavity, constructed from Two Skins of a 2" (50mm) Thick Composite Panel 8' x 4' (2.4mtr x 1.2mtr) Panels made up of Foam sandwiched between very thin metal facia sheets).
The Roof will have an Open Void to the Apex and will extend in height from 8' (2.4mtr) at the Eaves up 12'-14' (3.6mtr - 4.1mtr) at the Apex.
At present the design is to be 16' Wide x 30' Length(4.8mtr x 10mtr), which is ample for a temporary accommodation whilst a house renovation takes place, but can easily be altered to suit a room size for a optimised audio experience.
I have a recollection, that could be incorrect? , that was to suggest a room would need to be over 40' allow for a certain produced frequency to not be interfered with.
The intention was initially to buy in a Temporary accommodation, but the free gift of the Wall materials and ownership of other construction materials will mean a bespoke build can be done to suit a secondary usage, hence this inquiry, the Space will become the Audio and Home Entertainment Space.
I would like to know if the 16' W x 30' L is the dimension to suit what will be come the home for a range of speakers, I would like to have the usage of a Full Range Horn Speakers centred around as the initial plan, using owned Beyma CP 21 > Beyma TPL 150's > Beyma 12P80ND > Eminence Beta 15's.
I have purchased the above drivers for a OB Build which I will complete when the home is dealt with, these are now to be designated to the new space.
I also intend on having a Large DML Panel Speaker produced to be used and the long-term owned Stacked Quad 57's will also be used.
I use Cabinet Speakers in conjunction with Stacked ESL's in the present room treated listening space, of 14' x 13'.
The idea of expanding on the Speaker experience appeals, especially using the Drivers that are already owned, and especially after hearing full range Klipsch Jubilees during last year at my local hifi groups members home.
If time allows, I can build most structures, it is the EE side I am wanting on, but have plenty of support when required.
Getting back to the inquiry:
Do the room dimensions need to be changed to suit the Audio Space Plan?
Can the cavity space be used to support any of the ideas in place to have a selection of Speaker Experiences for myself and visitors?
I have a insulation that can be used to insulate the Cavity, but in doing so I lose the Air Space that might be beneficial to a Speaker Design?
I am hopeful that a guidance will be offered for Room Dimension and a Speaker Design to consider.
That sounds like a common misinterpretation of room modes. Some think it limits the ability to generate lower frequencies in the space, but that's not the case (headphones being an extreme example used to refute it). Room modes just reinforce certain frequencies - typically in exaggerated ways that are dealt with through careful speaker and listener placement to smooth things as much as is reasonably feasible.
In a custom room, a typical approach is to stagger the dimensions so multiple room modes don't pile up on each other and make them harder to use.
There are ways to absorb bad modes, but the best solutions tend to be large and customized for the space. The more modern approach is to use room correction equalization to minimize excessive excitation of those frequencies.
Some room ratio notes from my files (sorry for the lack of links):
Stereophile June 2021
Jens Holger Rindel of Odeon A/S acoustic software company says: to widely space room bass modes, any length to width ratio in the 1.15-1.45 range is fine. As long as the room is wider than it is high, the height of the ceiling doesn't matter very much. If room is shaped oddly (very tall for example) it's the ratio of the two largest dimensions that matters, not the ratio of the two smaller ones.
The best results were obtained with width/height 1.20, length/height 1.45, and length/width 1.21
J. Gordon Holt from 1983
the distance from the center of each surface to the center of the opposite one—should be in ratios of 1 to 1.25 to 1.6. . . . Doubling any one of them will move its fundamental standing wave upwards by one octave without changing its progression frequencies. Thus, our almost-ideal room can have dimension ratios of 1 to 1.6 to 2.5, Or 1 to 2.5 to 3.2. These variations make it possible to design for a "reasonable" ceiling height.
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Thank You for the input, the ratios helped me find the Link, which has a built in Calculator.
Using 1 to 1.6 to 2.5, I would have to be 16' High to get close to a 40' length, but height is the only authorities imposed restriction on a dimension that can be built, the 16' H is too much for basic allowances, it will be difficult to reach 40' L using these ratios.
I can get better at using the maximum allowed Ridge Height at 13' 6" (4mtr) at 1 to 2.5 - 3.2
As I have control of the Cavity construction, the inner wall could be slightly off vertical plumb, with the top spacing being 2" - 4"(50mm- 100mm) increased/decreased in dimension.
The Longest side walls could be set to be run non-parallel, (Tapered) with the rear or front end of the room having a dimension difference of up to 8" (200mm) increased / decreased along the shortest side walls.
I'm not sure of the advantages of Tapering Walls in a Listening Environment, but it is a method selected for Speaker Enclosures.
https://www.auralexchange.com/knowl...:text=The top 3 room ratios,1.4 : 1.89 : 1.35
Using 1 to 1.6 to 2.5, I would have to be 16' High to get close to a 40' length, but height is the only authorities imposed restriction on a dimension that can be built, the 16' H is too much for basic allowances, it will be difficult to reach 40' L using these ratios.
I can get better at using the maximum allowed Ridge Height at 13' 6" (4mtr) at 1 to 2.5 - 3.2
As I have control of the Cavity construction, the inner wall could be slightly off vertical plumb, with the top spacing being 2" - 4"(50mm- 100mm) increased/decreased in dimension.
The Longest side walls could be set to be run non-parallel, (Tapered) with the rear or front end of the room having a dimension difference of up to 8" (200mm) increased / decreased along the shortest side walls.
I'm not sure of the advantages of Tapering Walls in a Listening Environment, but it is a method selected for Speaker Enclosures.
https://www.auralexchange.com/knowl...:text=The top 3 room ratios,1.4 : 1.89 : 1.35
The Odeon note included: as long as the room is wider than it is high, the height of the ceiling doesn't matter very much.
Tapering the room's walls small amounts isn't likely to produce a large difference (not likely to do much acoustically in a speaker enclosure either 🙂 ). If you look at studio control rooms, concert halls, B&W nautilus derived enclosures etc. you'll see angles that are significant. For more typical shapes, treating the first reflection points with absorbers or diffusers would probably do far more.
The "reflection-free" section of this page is worth looking at for some ideas about how tapering works when done well:
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/sos-guide-control-room-design
The room modes are going to develop whether the walls are tapered or not, so there's no real help on that front. I think it generally works out to be the average of the distance between the two walls.
On all of this stuff, you have to pick your battles. If you try to chase little ideas of perfection while also trying to build a normal room, you can get lost in minutia that don't make much difference.
Tapering the room's walls small amounts isn't likely to produce a large difference (not likely to do much acoustically in a speaker enclosure either 🙂 ). If you look at studio control rooms, concert halls, B&W nautilus derived enclosures etc. you'll see angles that are significant. For more typical shapes, treating the first reflection points with absorbers or diffusers would probably do far more.
The "reflection-free" section of this page is worth looking at for some ideas about how tapering works when done well:
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/sos-guide-control-room-design
The room modes are going to develop whether the walls are tapered or not, so there's no real help on that front. I think it generally works out to be the average of the distance between the two walls.
On all of this stuff, you have to pick your battles. If you try to chase little ideas of perfection while also trying to build a normal room, you can get lost in minutia that don't make much difference.
If this means the center of the room in one or both directions, then it will be in the room's one or two fundamental (deepest) nulls, so normally not a good plan.
@GM I have picked out the Full Range Horn, as this is a Speaker I have very little experience of in use, and the one from having experiences of, are claimed by their owners to have needed a lot of additional room treatment to get them to produce their sonic best in the set up space.
I have assumed if the Space is created to be optimised for a FR Horn, then I will feel confident I can achieve a good coupling to the room with other known Speaker Designs.
Can you elaborate on what it is seen to be not a normally good plan?
I am against the Clock now to submit a plan to the authorities to show a dimension of a Structure.
As an aside, even though 40' Length, is a desirable length for the room, I can quite easily, reduce the listening volume, by having a section of the overall space used for a High Security Room (Temperature and Humidity Controlled) to contain the collection of the Audio System and Records / CD's.
I have assumed if the Space is created to be optimised for a FR Horn, then I will feel confident I can achieve a good coupling to the room with other known Speaker Designs.
Can you elaborate on what it is seen to be not a normally good plan?
I am against the Clock now to submit a plan to the authorities to show a dimension of a Structure.
As an aside, even though 40' Length, is a desirable length for the room, I can quite easily, reduce the listening volume, by having a section of the overall space used for a High Security Room (Temperature and Humidity Controlled) to contain the collection of the Audio System and Records / CD's.
- In a post I created in Subwoofers - Title 'Ripole Dimensions ( Help Needed) 2020-10-18 10:59 am, there has been advisories on how to create a Subwoofer, especially utilising a simplistic structure as a Large Board as a Baffle and how certain designs are effected by null points.
Is there any benefits to be had if one design for a Subwoofer is the drivers being bedded into the a improved rigidity Wall Panel using the wall cavity as the m/3 Volume?
The Subwoofer could also be attached as Stereo Set Up and be attached to a Wall Panel that is toed in towards the listener facing onto them, or toed in and facing their rear?
The Volume in the Cavity can also be controlled, as Cavity can be wider for a section of the Wall and Studs Walls can be made as a Picture Frame to allow an increased volume. Solid Studs with an air seal connection to wall panels can be introduced when the Volume needs to be Capped.
When toeing in or adjusting a cavity spacing, if it increases to a certain amount, a Bulk Head detail will be needed to close the Void created at the head of the wall.
This as a method might prove totally OK for other forms of audio-visual entertainment with a Full Range Driver and Plate Amp or Bass only with a DML Design as decorative panels?
As the Audio System is Valve Based, the above method enables the that the main system can be bypassed if only watching a movie.
I am a open book to all suggestions.
It's hard to tell what you are describing. Some of it sounds like you mean a dipole woofer setup and some of it sounds like you are talking about an infinite baffle configuration. They are both things that have their merits to listeners. Choosing between configurations is mostly a matter of taste.
Dipoles are often angled at the listener since they have nulls off-axis.
Normal subwoofers are omnidirectional, so their orientation doesn't matter much.
For normal subwoofers, distributing them typically produces the smoothest in-room response. If the subs have built-in room correction, this is less of a concern. It comes down to how you plan to use all the pieces and whether you want optimal acoustics or aesthetics.
Building equipment into the room handcuffs you more going forward. If you aren't doing something really big, really different, really stealth, etc. it's likely not worth the energy required or inherent limitations it creates.
Dipoles are often angled at the listener since they have nulls off-axis.
Normal subwoofers are omnidirectional, so their orientation doesn't matter much.
For normal subwoofers, distributing them typically produces the smoothest in-room response. If the subs have built-in room correction, this is less of a concern. It comes down to how you plan to use all the pieces and whether you want optimal acoustics or aesthetics.
Building equipment into the room handcuffs you more going forward. If you aren't doing something really big, really different, really stealth, etc. it's likely not worth the energy required or inherent limitations it creates.
Hi Mattstat
I am at present quite able to confuse the subject as I am attempting to learn how to fully exploit the space to be produced and the structure to be produced.
exploiting the structure does not present itself too often as a means to use a cavities volume.
In describing that the Outer Wall of the building, it will be a Typical Construction Practice, i.e vertical plumb to a specific dimension.
The Inner Wall can be arranged to be of a particular design and cavity dimension, if there is a strong suggestion to say it is worthwhile doing.
At present the wall will remain a standard cavity design of 2" - 4", if I fill the cavity with Rockwool Insulation as is the plan thus far, I lose the Volume that is available within the cavity that could be utilised for other experimental speaker designs.
The OB' Design, Horn Design, DML Design, are the most wanted new to my systems designs to try Speakers, any other methods made known to produce a Speaker is to be considered.
As for a Cavity that could be used alternatively to the one belonging to the rooms external wall structure structure.
If I choose to go for a very secure room within, to store the Audio System, the Concrete Block Wall this will be built from can be a double skin wall with a cavity of a dimension that is bespoke selected to suit a 'in wall' Speaker design. (6' W x 8'H x 8"void ), this can be a stereo method as one Cavity can be used on either side of the rooms door.
Lets say I am happy with the Room Dimension 40'L x 20'-30' W x 12'- 14' Ridge Height - 8' Eaves Height, I have already found a used batch of House Roof Trusses at a very affordable price, to suit approx' 25' Width x approx' 14' Ridge Height.
Everything else as a inquiry about the use of the structure is inquisitiveness and being experimental, ideas are being sought after.
I am at present quite able to confuse the subject as I am attempting to learn how to fully exploit the space to be produced and the structure to be produced.
exploiting the structure does not present itself too often as a means to use a cavities volume.
In describing that the Outer Wall of the building, it will be a Typical Construction Practice, i.e vertical plumb to a specific dimension.
The Inner Wall can be arranged to be of a particular design and cavity dimension, if there is a strong suggestion to say it is worthwhile doing.
At present the wall will remain a standard cavity design of 2" - 4", if I fill the cavity with Rockwool Insulation as is the plan thus far, I lose the Volume that is available within the cavity that could be utilised for other experimental speaker designs.
The OB' Design, Horn Design, DML Design, are the most wanted new to my systems designs to try Speakers, any other methods made known to produce a Speaker is to be considered.
As for a Cavity that could be used alternatively to the one belonging to the rooms external wall structure structure.
If I choose to go for a very secure room within, to store the Audio System, the Concrete Block Wall this will be built from can be a double skin wall with a cavity of a dimension that is bespoke selected to suit a 'in wall' Speaker design. (6' W x 8'H x 8"void ), this can be a stereo method as one Cavity can be used on either side of the rooms door.
Lets say I am happy with the Room Dimension 40'L x 20'-30' W x 12'- 14' Ridge Height - 8' Eaves Height, I have already found a used batch of House Roof Trusses at a very affordable price, to suit approx' 25' Width x approx' 14' Ridge Height.
Everything else as a inquiry about the use of the structure is inquisitiveness and being experimental, ideas are being sought after.
There are a zillion different ways to do everything. If you want to experiment with different speaker types in the future, just try to build things in a way that leaves "doors" open for future changes. Closets have been used for infinite baffle subs, as have attic and crawl spaces. Extra wiring, outlets, and wire chases are handy. Zero threshold floors are useful so you can easily roll things around.
Large rooms can be quite echoey, which can wreak havoc on speech intelligibility and make them unpleasant. Getting a significant amount of absorption into the room is often necessary. If you are going to generally have hard floors, walls, and ceilings, it's worth some early thought about how you're going to handle absorption. Slat walls with absorbers behind them is one way to do it. There are also tensioned fabric systems for walls and ceilings that can hide absorbers. The lower in frequency you want them to be effective, the more depth they need. Having geometry that's amenable to that can help.
I think picking a reasonable room ratio to distribute room modes well is worth doing (but it doesn't have to be perfect or obsessed over). Avoid cubes, multiples of measurements, etc. That is an optimal scenario, but it's not like the world blows up if you don't do it perfectly. My main system is in a 24 x 16 x 8 room, and with the correct speaker and listening positions, it's tame.
I wouldn't bother with angling the main walls, as the amount you suggested is below what is needed to make a significant difference, and it just complicates construction. It's hard enough to get people to build things plumb/square/straight.
Large rooms can be quite echoey, which can wreak havoc on speech intelligibility and make them unpleasant. Getting a significant amount of absorption into the room is often necessary. If you are going to generally have hard floors, walls, and ceilings, it's worth some early thought about how you're going to handle absorption. Slat walls with absorbers behind them is one way to do it. There are also tensioned fabric systems for walls and ceilings that can hide absorbers. The lower in frequency you want them to be effective, the more depth they need. Having geometry that's amenable to that can help.
I think picking a reasonable room ratio to distribute room modes well is worth doing (but it doesn't have to be perfect or obsessed over). Avoid cubes, multiples of measurements, etc. That is an optimal scenario, but it's not like the world blows up if you don't do it perfectly. My main system is in a 24 x 16 x 8 room, and with the correct speaker and listening positions, it's tame.
I wouldn't bother with angling the main walls, as the amount you suggested is below what is needed to make a significant difference, and it just complicates construction. It's hard enough to get people to build things plumb/square/straight.
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Hi Mattstat
As I am the main builder, only the Slab will be farmed out a bit of welding to a steel frame if needed, what would be the dimensions to create an angled wall that would make a significant difference.
I also have substantial materials to create absorption/dispersion/deflection ancillaries, my room at present has been very attractive as a end sound through utilising these types of ancillaries, the exposed roof truss design on the new room will enable suspended ancillaries at differing heights to be utilised far more easier as well .
As I am the main builder, only the Slab will be farmed out a bit of welding to a steel frame if needed, what would be the dimensions to create an angled wall that would make a significant difference.
I also have substantial materials to create absorption/dispersion/deflection ancillaries, my room at present has been very attractive as a end sound through utilising these types of ancillaries, the exposed roof truss design on the new room will enable suspended ancillaries at differing heights to be utilised far more easier as well .
'Full range' as in a single wide BW driver on a huge, long horn or ??
A room optimized for a horn system ideally must be wide, long, high enough for its entire BW to fully develop without reflecting off any room boundaries till behind the listener's head terminated in a very diffuse soundfield such as a ~wall height/width bookcase with a wide array of knickknacks, differing book, Records, etc., spacing angles/gaps, etc., such as I have or be specifically designed as a wide BW acoustic trap.
Rooms are 1/2 WL resonators, so the deepest null is at its center, ergo one normally doesn't want the room to 'suck the life out' whatever this fundamental is and all its harmonics, especially in a really large room since the lower the fundamental, the wider its harmonic BW.
In short, place the speakers, listening positions at a room's odd harmonics and some golden or acoustic ratio that offsets the entire soundstage off center in 3D referenced to listening height.