To simplify what 5th Element was saying about integrating a subwoofer, you'd need to connect it via the RCA outputs of your amp (assuming you have RCA outputs, which most integrated amps do). The subwoofer won't run off your amplifiers speaker outputs, the amp has no low-pass crossover and probably has nowhere near the power/impendance rating to run a sub. You would need to buy a 'plate amplifier' to run the sub and build it into the box you construct for the subwoofer. These amps are generally refered to as 'plate amps' because they are flat and sit on a metal plate flush with the surface of the sub enclosure. Plate amps almost always come with a low pass crossover built in since they're designed specifically to be used with a subwoofer.
Setting the sub up this way by itself doesn't do anything to limit the low frequency output to your main speakers, however. Newer receivers often have a "small mode" which will trim the bass frequency to the main speakers but I suspect yours doesn't have that since there's no sub output. There is a simple solution however!
When buiding a sealed enclosure for your main speakers the woofer will essentially be 'naturally' crossed over to limit its bass output. The pressure of the sealed airspace inside the box will provide resistance against the woofer at low frequencies and prevent the woofer playing low bass frequencies. This is why you hear people saying that ported systems make more bass. The natural low frequency response of the RBR kit in a sealed box is 58hz (vs 35hz in a ported box with lower internal pressure) which is almost the ideal frequency to cross it over if you use a sub. Using a sealed enclosure design essentially eliminates the need for a high-pass crossover for your main speakers.
Btw, I was in the 'bigger is better' camp when I started into audio. I have some $1500 Klipsch monster towers with dual 12" woofers per speaker with 101db sensitivity sitting in my garage collecting dust while I listen to my $400 RBR's - and its going to stay that way.
To 5th Element,
My intent isn't to say the zaph kit is inferior (it probably does sound very good). But it's very much an apples/oranges comparison though: one well-reputed expensive driver vs four yet-to-be-proven inexpensive drivers.
Scan-speak drivers are widely used in many extremely high-end designs and are well-known to be some of the finest drivers available at any cost. The ZA14 driver is essentially a complete newcomer, with only Zaph's designs using them, and it's designed to compete in the budget market. There's still very little consensus information available about the ZA14 drivers so it could be great but it's still too soon to say for certain. My personal opinion is that it's better to choose quality over quantity, simplicity over complication and well-knowns over unknowns.
One of the main considerations I took into account when I recommend the RBR to him is that it's a -very- simple to construct project and it sounds like a far bigger speaker than it is. Also, he has zero building experience and keeping things simple will make it a more enjoyable, successful project. By increasing the enclosure size and using 10 drivers with 4 ports per pair (the zaph kit) instead of 4 drivers total in a sealed box (RBR), the project could become more difficult than he's capable of completing successfully.
Setting the sub up this way by itself doesn't do anything to limit the low frequency output to your main speakers, however. Newer receivers often have a "small mode" which will trim the bass frequency to the main speakers but I suspect yours doesn't have that since there's no sub output. There is a simple solution however!
When buiding a sealed enclosure for your main speakers the woofer will essentially be 'naturally' crossed over to limit its bass output. The pressure of the sealed airspace inside the box will provide resistance against the woofer at low frequencies and prevent the woofer playing low bass frequencies. This is why you hear people saying that ported systems make more bass. The natural low frequency response of the RBR kit in a sealed box is 58hz (vs 35hz in a ported box with lower internal pressure) which is almost the ideal frequency to cross it over if you use a sub. Using a sealed enclosure design essentially eliminates the need for a high-pass crossover for your main speakers.
Btw, I was in the 'bigger is better' camp when I started into audio. I have some $1500 Klipsch monster towers with dual 12" woofers per speaker with 101db sensitivity sitting in my garage collecting dust while I listen to my $400 RBR's - and its going to stay that way.
To 5th Element,
My intent isn't to say the zaph kit is inferior (it probably does sound very good). But it's very much an apples/oranges comparison though: one well-reputed expensive driver vs four yet-to-be-proven inexpensive drivers.
Scan-speak drivers are widely used in many extremely high-end designs and are well-known to be some of the finest drivers available at any cost. The ZA14 driver is essentially a complete newcomer, with only Zaph's designs using them, and it's designed to compete in the budget market. There's still very little consensus information available about the ZA14 drivers so it could be great but it's still too soon to say for certain. My personal opinion is that it's better to choose quality over quantity, simplicity over complication and well-knowns over unknowns.
One of the main considerations I took into account when I recommend the RBR to him is that it's a -very- simple to construct project and it sounds like a far bigger speaker than it is. Also, he has zero building experience and keeping things simple will make it a more enjoyable, successful project. By increasing the enclosure size and using 10 drivers with 4 ports per pair (the zaph kit) instead of 4 drivers total in a sealed box (RBR), the project could become more difficult than he's capable of completing successfully.
If the OP wants loud then the RB kits are simply a bad suggestion (sorry guys).
I have 2 sets of the RBs myself and even though for their $$$ they are nice they simply do nothing in terms of SPL.
The OP needs to research what some other downunder are building. Waveguide designs are pretty hot these days and they truely the only designs to give the SPL requirements many of us need in our HT Rooms.
I have 2 sets of the RBs myself and even though for their $$$ they are nice they simply do nothing in terms of SPL.
The OP needs to research what some other downunder are building. Waveguide designs are pretty hot these days and they truely the only designs to give the SPL requirements many of us need in our HT Rooms.
Thanks for the clarification on the plate amp, I assumed this was a given but obviously wasn't!
A sealed enclosure only goes so far to limit low frequency excursion. Yes they do keep excursion constant below a certain frequency, but you quickly run into xmax trouble with the scan driver.
In fact ported controls the excursion far better down to around 30hz, due to the port loading. If your music contained nothing below this frequency you'd be better off going ported.
Of course most music doesn't contain much below 30hz, but if you did happen to run into something the cones would flap around all over the place.
Neither ported or sealed offer a clear advantage over the other one. On the one hand sealed will prevent cone flap at very low frequencies. On the other hand ported will give you greater headroom with most music.
Sealed + a high pass on the main speakers is the obvious answer, but that might be too complicated - This is why I asked for the model of the Aiwa amp. Lots of integrateds do come with pre outs and pre ins, if you've got both the problem just became a whole lot easier.
It only competes in the budget market because most of the boutique drivers are vastly over priced. The ZA14 driver is solid engineering brought to you at the price it actually costs to build the thing. John designed the drivers himself, where he sets the price of the RnD. Obviously he has decided to keep the drivers at a price reflective of the construction cost, rather then some other 'audiophile lets quadruple the price' affair.
(I mean do the Seas Excel drivers really cost almost three times that of the prestige range to make? Hardly. And did they require loads more RnD to get that last perhaps 10% performance? I would think not. But they do cost that much more.)
It depends what you require to be certain about something. Both Zaph and Mark K have tested the ZA14 driver and it measures like a champ. Ordinarily this would be enough to have the drivers receive a glowing recommendation from almost anyone.
http://www.audioheuristics.org/measurements/Testing/ZA14/ZA14.htm
Mark certainly wasn't being kind to Zaph in any way, the results of the tests speak for themselves.
With the ZA5.5 kit your getting quality & quantity, unless all the measurements of the ZA14 just happen to be wrong.
Some of the most complicated designs are some of the best sounding. The Orions are one of the most complicated speakers there are when it comes to what the xover does, yet they receiving more praise then almost any DIY loudspeaker I can think of.
The only complexity in the ZA5.5 is the fact you've got a 2.5 way MMTMM. The crossover is very very simple, its only got 9 elements in the entire thing.
I was under the impression that other people would do the majority of the work, whilst the original poster learns from their guidance.
Building a box bigger then another one doesn't really make it considerably harder. Either you can measure and cut a straight line or you cant. And countersinking multiple drivers isn't really any harder then countersinking one. Once you've got the jig set up, you just repeat and rinse.
Besides I'm sure any decent DIY store will cut up the MDF into any shapes and sizes you want. I know the stores near here do, you get the first few cuts free, then pay a tiny amount for the extra ones.
If you could complete the RBR successfully, there's nothing preventing you from completing the ZA5.5 successfully either. The skill set to build both are exactly the same, the only difference is the ZA5.5 will take you longer to make.
In my opinion it just depends on what hey_homes feels confident about and maybe he should discuss the designs with the people who will help him with their construction. If he has a friend who's great at carpentry and really likes the idea of building something like the ZA5.5s, then there's no problem at all regarding what design he chooses.
I still think the ZA5.5s meet more of Rob's demands then the RBRs, which is why I am recommending them.
A sealed enclosure only goes so far to limit low frequency excursion. Yes they do keep excursion constant below a certain frequency, but you quickly run into xmax trouble with the scan driver.
In fact ported controls the excursion far better down to around 30hz, due to the port loading. If your music contained nothing below this frequency you'd be better off going ported.
Of course most music doesn't contain much below 30hz, but if you did happen to run into something the cones would flap around all over the place.
Neither ported or sealed offer a clear advantage over the other one. On the one hand sealed will prevent cone flap at very low frequencies. On the other hand ported will give you greater headroom with most music.
Sealed + a high pass on the main speakers is the obvious answer, but that might be too complicated - This is why I asked for the model of the Aiwa amp. Lots of integrateds do come with pre outs and pre ins, if you've got both the problem just became a whole lot easier.
It only competes in the budget market because most of the boutique drivers are vastly over priced. The ZA14 driver is solid engineering brought to you at the price it actually costs to build the thing. John designed the drivers himself, where he sets the price of the RnD. Obviously he has decided to keep the drivers at a price reflective of the construction cost, rather then some other 'audiophile lets quadruple the price' affair.
(I mean do the Seas Excel drivers really cost almost three times that of the prestige range to make? Hardly. And did they require loads more RnD to get that last perhaps 10% performance? I would think not. But they do cost that much more.)
It depends what you require to be certain about something. Both Zaph and Mark K have tested the ZA14 driver and it measures like a champ. Ordinarily this would be enough to have the drivers receive a glowing recommendation from almost anyone.
http://www.audioheuristics.org/measurements/Testing/ZA14/ZA14.htm
Mark certainly wasn't being kind to Zaph in any way, the results of the tests speak for themselves.
With the ZA5.5 kit your getting quality & quantity, unless all the measurements of the ZA14 just happen to be wrong.
Some of the most complicated designs are some of the best sounding. The Orions are one of the most complicated speakers there are when it comes to what the xover does, yet they receiving more praise then almost any DIY loudspeaker I can think of.
The only complexity in the ZA5.5 is the fact you've got a 2.5 way MMTMM. The crossover is very very simple, its only got 9 elements in the entire thing.
I was under the impression that other people would do the majority of the work, whilst the original poster learns from their guidance.
Building a box bigger then another one doesn't really make it considerably harder. Either you can measure and cut a straight line or you cant. And countersinking multiple drivers isn't really any harder then countersinking one. Once you've got the jig set up, you just repeat and rinse.
Besides I'm sure any decent DIY store will cut up the MDF into any shapes and sizes you want. I know the stores near here do, you get the first few cuts free, then pay a tiny amount for the extra ones.
If you could complete the RBR successfully, there's nothing preventing you from completing the ZA5.5 successfully either. The skill set to build both are exactly the same, the only difference is the ZA5.5 will take you longer to make.
In my opinion it just depends on what hey_homes feels confident about and maybe he should discuss the designs with the people who will help him with their construction. If he has a friend who's great at carpentry and really likes the idea of building something like the ZA5.5s, then there's no problem at all regarding what design he chooses.
I still think the ZA5.5s meet more of Rob's demands then the RBRs, which is why I am recommending them.
Are we talking the RB, the RB-2, or the RBR? Just clarifying, since there's three recession buster kits on Madisound now...
IMO, it doesnt matter...None are what I consider High SPL, great dynamic designs.
The OP did want SPL so that needs to be address.
We were discussing the RBR @ $400, so similar in price to the ZA5.5 MMTMM.
Which is my main problem with the RBR. Good 5.5" two ways can sound larger then life, but you cannot escape the fact that it's a 5.5" driver - you have to lose out somewhere - either SPL or bass. The scan gives up sensitivity for bass, which is a good idea. People who are happy with 5.5" two ways, aren't after large SPLs and having bass down to around 30hz is better then increasing a max spl that will never be used.
The ZA14 driver takes a slightly different approach, they are more sensitive but offer less absolute extension. This is also a commendable approach where more and more people are using subs, where that extra 10-20 hz extension would be wasted - you're obviously better off with greater sensitivity.
No the ZA5.5 MMTMM wont go as low as the RBR, but it will go a lot louder.
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